M11-S?

[costa43]

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5 hours ago, Kwesi said:

You are not going to see that in an M11 platform camera - no matter how low the price. 

1 - it will cost more than its worth to retool for some low cost one off run.

2 - Leica M's have moved on from off the shutter metering.

I do agree, I think Leica are working towards removing the the mechanical shutter altogether so they can accommodate ibis in the next model. This post is just a bit of fun. 

[otto.f]

On 9/24/2023 at 10:20 PM, IkarusJohn said:

my existing cameras

Maybe it’s me, but I cannot find which M’s you are having now

[IkarusJohn]

2 hours ago, otto.f said:

Maybe it’s me, but I cannot find which M’s you are having now

Well, I still have my original silver chrome Monochrom; my M10-D (in Wetzlar having a digital transplant); and my black paint M-A.

Long term, I’m stuck with the M system as I’m totally addicted to my M lenses:

• 21 Summilux-M ASPH
• 28 Summillux-M ASPH
• 28 Summaron-M (silver)
• 35 Summilux-M pre-asph v2
• 35 APO Summicron-M ASPH
• 50 Noctilux-M 0.95
• 50 Summilux-M ASPH (silver)
• 50 APO Summicron-M ASPH (black chrome)
• 50/2 Summitar LTM
• 75 Summilux-M

I can’t think of a way of improving that lot, or anything I’d like to add.  The problem for me is my M10-D has died once already.  Sure, it will come back from Wetzlar eventually, reborn.  But I’m in the M system for the long haul.  Hence my interest in the future of the digital M, or lack of a future which will involve me.  That’s disappointing …

[Jacobjuul]

11 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Well, I still have my original silver chrome Monochrom; my M10-D (in Wetzlar having a digital transplant); and my black paint M-A.

Long term, I’m stuck with the M system as I’m totally addicted to my M lenses:

• 21 Summilux-M ASPH
• 28 Summillux-M ASPH
• 28 Summaron-M (silver)
• 35 Summilux-M pre-asph v2
• 35 APO Summicron-M ASPH
• 50 Noctilux-M 0.95
• 50 Summilux-M ASPH (silver)
• 50 APO Summicron-M ASPH (black chrome)
• 50/2 Summitar LTM
• 75 Summilux-M

I can’t think of a way of improving that lot, or anything I’d like to add.  The problem for me is my M10-D has died once already.  Sure, it will come back from Wetzlar eventually, reborn.  But I’m in the M system for the long haul.  Hence my interest in the future of the digital M, or lack of a future which will involve me.  That’s disappointing …

Solid, how do you like the 21 lux?

[Kwesi]

6 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Not sure about your “re-tooling” comment, but I’m sure you’re right about #2.

Over the years since the M8, there’s been lots of speculation about what will come next, accompanied by confident predictions over what’s possible and what isn’t - almost all of it wrong.  

Leica was presumably still making M10 based digital cameras with metering off the shutter til last year, and the MP and M6 still have shutter metering.  I’m not sure where you get your confident assertion from, unless you forgot to add “in my opinion”.  

I also don’t get why it would be “one-off”.  If anything, the current M11 could be “one-off”.  If there is enough enthusiasm (as there seems to be from this small sample), I have no doubt Leica would make it, and would make it profitable.  You only need to look back to the scorn and mockery which welcomed the M Edition 60, followed by the M-D and M10-D -> buy some duct tape, don’t use the screen if you don’t like it, et etc.  The experts were strangely silent after the success of those two cameras.

Leica has a history of going backwards …

But, we’ll see.  This speculation, and bit of pipe-dreaming, will almost certainly achieve nothing.  That is a prediction I’m confident of. 🙄

I reread your original post and it seems to me what you are describing here is a M10 platform body perhaps with the button layout of the M11? Not sure that’s enough to make it am M 11-S. 
Leica’s one offs are usually more expensive but what you are asking for is a cheaper camera. The way the MII reads light and uses that information is a huge part of the camera - take that away and I’m afraid you no longer have an MII

[otto.f]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

Well, I still have my original silver chrome Monochrom; my M10-D (in Wetzlar having a digital transplant); and my black paint M-A.

Long term, I’m stuck with the M system as I’m totally addicted to my M lenses:

• 21 Summilux-M ASPH
• 28 Summillux-M ASPH
• 28 Summaron-M (silver)
• 35 Summilux-M pre-asph v2
• 35 APO Summicron-M ASPH
• 50 Noctilux-M 0.95
• 50 Summilux-M ASPH (silver)
• 50 APO Summicron-M ASPH (black chrome)
• 50/2 Summitar LTM
• 75 Summilux-M

I can’t think of a way of improving that lot, or anything I’d like to add.  The problem for me is my M10-D has died once already.  Sure, it will come back from Wetzlar eventually, reborn.  But I’m in the M system for the long haul.  Hence my interest in the future of the digital M, or lack of a future which will involve me.  That’s disappointing …

What you want more from this M11-S idea are in my view and style of photography, which seems to me not far away from yours, all minor points. The only difference with your M10-D is the battery and the rest is GAS which comes from having too much time to think because your M10-D is in repair. Ok, I can follow your WiFi wish, but this isn’t as bad as when it started. Internal memory is just a gadget. I do not see why I would work faster with a direct connection with USB-C. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by otto.f

[Photoworks]

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6 hours ago, otto.f said:

What you want more from this M11-S idea are in my view and style of photography, which seems to me not far away from yours, all minor points. The only difference with your M10-D is the battery and the rest is GAS which comes from having too much time to think because your M10-D is in repair. Ok, I can follow your WiFi wish, but this isn’t as bad as when it started. Internal memory is just a gadget. I do not see why I would work faster with a direct connection with USB-C. 

sounds like you didn't get a chance to use the M11 and enjoy the benefits

[otto.f]

14 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

sounds like you didn't get a chance to use the M11 and enjoy the benefits

I did and I really loved the way it lays in your hands

[IkarusJohn]

8 hours ago, Jacobjuul said:

Solid, how do you like the 21 lux?

Not the sharpest wide open, but it’s useful to have that ability.

I like wides, particularly with strong skies (cloud formations and the like.  Composition is more critical with wide angles, and you need to be careful with level horizons and distortion at the edges (heads in particular).  It’s a favourite lens.

[IkarusJohn]

7 hours ago, otto.f said:

What you want more from this M11-S idea are in my view and style of photography, which seems to me not far away from yours, all minor points. The only difference with your M10-D is the battery and the rest is GAS which comes from having too much time to think because your M10-D is in repair. Ok, I can follow your WiFi wish, but this isn’t as bad as when it started. Internal memory is just a gadget. I do not see why I would work faster with a direct connection with USB-C. 

Not so much GAS as the comfort of knowing that there will be a digital M in the future which works for me.

The M11 is the next step in the digital M.  I don’t expect Leica to continue making the M10 - that’s history now.  If I want another one, I guess I could hunt around secondhand when I need to.  But buying secondhand electronics has never struck me as a good strategy.  So, what’s wrong with the M11?  It has so many features which are unnecessary and unattractive, for me.  I don’t want or need 60MP (particularly without IBIS - my X2D has it, and it is very effective); I really don’t want or need pixel binning, cropping or even JPEGs, but I agree I could live with it; but I really don’t want permanent live view metering.

On the last issue, let me point out that I do use my M10-D with the EVF, which effectively gives me the same thing as the M11 - open shutter, metering options and the unpleasant close-open-close-open shutter action.  With my X2D, which also has an EVF, the action is slightly different, with electronic first shutter, leaf shutter close, then open again.  It has a very pleasant sound with the new V lenses, but you do need to be careful with weird bokeh balls if you shoot wide open and fast shutter speed (a bit like a rolling shutter effect).

But I digress.

Most of the rest of the M11 I’d be happy with - lose the baseplate (pointless with a digital camera - I have one with my M-A), internal memory (1TB with the X2D, and it’s fantastic), bigger battery and improved WiFi.  All good.  Price?  Well cheaper is always better, but variants always seem to cost more - my Monochrom and M10-D were more expensive than the base model - less always costs more with Leica.

[Kwesi]

16 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

So, what’s wrong with the M11?  It has so many features which are unnecessary and unattractive, for me.  I don’t want or need 60MP (particularly without IBIS - my X2D has it, and it is very effective); I really don’t want or need pixel binning, cropping or even JPEGs, but I agree I could live with it; but I really don’t want permanent live view metering.

I think what you are implying is the that if you apply a cost benefit analysis to the M11, it comes up short for you. I think that's fair and reasonable if that's true for you.

Unfortunately I just don't see a future Digital M that won't fall short for you. My sense is that as hard as this may be for you perhaps the best option for you may be to just evaluate the image "improvements" of any future M and simply ignore the features you don't care for.

Luckily, Leica makes it really easy to ignore features that don't apply to the individual user.

[IkarusJohn]

10 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

I think what you are implying is the that if you apply a cost benefit analysis to the M11, it comes up short for you. I think that's fair and reasonable if that's true for you.

Unfortunately I just don't see a future Digital M that won't fall short for you. My sense is that as hard as this may be for you perhaps the best option for you may be to just evaluate the image "improvements" of any future M and simply ignore the features you don't care for.

Luckily, Leica makes it really easy to ignore features that don't apply to the individual user.

How do you ignore the shutter?

[Kwesi]

When I first turn it on, the physical feel " dull thunk" when the shutter opens tells me the camera is ready for me to check the status menu if I need to. when I'm out on the street I will occasionally tap the shutter to wake the camera, again that small "thunk" feels very much like cocking the shutter and lets me know the camera is ready.

I guess in my case i don't ignore it, I've just found uses for it. eg. one of my favorite things to do when I attend a classical concert is to photograph the soloist. with my prior M's I would have to wait for a loud moment to mask the sound of the shutter - oh my! remember the m9 shutter? thank goodness for discrete mode :). But now I switch from hybrid to electronic and the camera is completely silent allowing me to shoot in those really quiet and expressive moments.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Kwesi

[IkarusJohn]

I get the same thunk when I attach the EVF to my M10-D.

I have to use the electronic shutter when I mount my Noctilux or my APO Elmarit-R 180/2.8 to my X2D.  It requires some care, as the 100MP sensor is very unforgiving of any motion, even with the excellent IBIS.  However, the results are worth the effort!