Different perspective on EV, ISO, Compensation (Mark's posts merged)

[sean_reid]

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Write FW to get the camera operating as intended before attempting to add functionality that strictly is not necessary.

 

Jeff

 

 

What is "necessary" or "important" for the M8 is very much a matter of personal opinion.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[robertwright]

Been away from the thread.

 

So to try to keep the thread moving towards something I wanted to summarize again.

 

There is the issue of one handed operation or two. I am for One-Hand-Clapping:D

 

There is then the consequent issue of timeout-this is something I did not see coming. I think it could be problematic. In other words you have a mode where confirmation is now only with the shutter button, yet all other modes confirm with the set button and dismiss is with the shutter button. They are opposed. I see this creating confusion.

 

Third issue is bilateral inputs, EV-ISO, is it good to do this or should we just pick one?

 

Fourth issue is reprogramming existing buttons like protect. I am not for this. That seems to me to be for the M9, going back to a hard ISO button in place of protect.

 

I am a bit of a user interface geek, so this stuff interests me.

 

Another thing I would not like to see changed is the viewfinder display, it is very simple and i like that. I think we should be thinking along the lines of what is the bare minimum we can do to the camera to make it more useful. This would go along the lines of the Leica aesthetic. Less is more. So we have all these proposals, but I don't know if there was ever a consensus on what the mission was to begin with-I said this earlier, are we trying to address the missing ISO button, or are we trying to make EV comp more usable. I think those things are different. For me, the ISO implementation is poor but I can live with it bc it is a film-era kind of thing, I tend to pick one "look" and stick with it. As conditions change I change lighting or approach but not usually ISO. Again, everyone is different. But to me, having a shoot with some images at 160 and some images at 640 would be problematic. I think the Av+Ev mode may prove more useful in the long run to me.

 

I understand that satisfying the bulk of the users will probably mean modding ISO and Ev and Wb inputs, but this thread was meant to get at the assumptions leading to that mod.

[marknorton]

It's a trade off between the number of controls a camera has (and their different modes of operation) and the complexity of the menu system. If you restrict the number of direct access controls on the camera, you inevitably rely more on a menu system.

 

I count 15 controls on a Leica M8, the same on an R-D1, 36 on a Nikon D2x, so it's not surprising the Nikon has both greater functionality and a number of direct access buttons to the functions being discussed here. I'm sure Canon is similar. The M8 looked a bit light on controls when the first pictures of it were leaked. Leica had gone overboard minimalist and we can now see the merit of additional dedicated buttons and a secondary display to show, in addition to battery and card status, ISO, EV, WB and Image Format such as is provided on the R-D1, the D2x and the DMR.

 

The Nikon provides a dedicated direct access button for each and even the R-D1 provides dedicated controls for each, although they are not handled in a consistent way. All four of those key parameters are adjusted using the SET menu instead in the M8.

 

What we're trying to do in this thread is to define additional direct access to the required function and it's desirable to look at unused modality in the existing controls to provide both consistent and unambiguous operation. Pressing and holding the SET key provides exactly that because that mode is not used anywhere else in the camera. On the other hand, pressing an arrow key or the protect key (such as Sean suggests) to initiate change is only OK if that action is not already defined for the current mode of operation.

 

And there's a problem. Set the camera to auto review "hold" and the protect button is always active; the left/right arrow buttons are active just as soon as the image has been written to the card. If the left/right buttons are to be used to provide fast access to changing ISO and EV, how, exactly, would they do this if auto review was set to hold?

[delander †]

Its not either/or. I'm always puzzled when I hear things posed that way. Leica is capable of simultaneous work.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Well judging from Leica's performance in the upgrading of FW, in this area they seem to have rather limited resources. I doubt that they can do all these things simultaneously.

 

 

Jeff

[delander †]

What is "necessary" or "important" for the M8 is very much a matter of personal opinion.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

I understand that but I did use the word 'strictly' - it makes a difference to the meaning.

 

Jeff

[marknorton]

I have a question.

 

Could someone explain to me how this function would work if you had Auto Review set to "hold"?

 

Currently, in this situation (and once the the card write is complete), the left and right arrow buttons move you between images and the protect button brings up the protect menu. How, then, would the camera know that, actually, you wanted to change ISO/EV/WB? Would it be psychic? Or would the function be unavailable because the LCD is never blank?

 

So, let's see, you have a fast way of changing ISO and EV providing you don't have Auto Review set to "hold". Sean, when you discussed this with your buddies at Leica, how was this going to be resolved?

 

As a matter of record, pressing the SET button (such as I suggest), cancels the Image Review "hold"...

[sean_reid]

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It's a trade off between the number of controls a camera has (and their different modes of operation) and the complexity of the menu system. If you restrict the number of direct access controls on the camera, you inevitably rely more on a menu system...The M8 looked a bit light on controls when the first pictures of it were leaked. Leica had gone overboard minimalist and we can now see the merit of additional dedicated buttons and a secondary display to show, in addition to battery and card status, ISO, EV, WB and Image Format such as is provided on the R-D1, the D2x and the DMR.

 

 

I must say that I agree with all of the above and it is very similar to what I wrote in that first M8 review. What I wrote in first review, in fact, was that the M8 seemed to be designed with excellent input from *film* photographers. Of course, the only previous M's were film cameras. So focus, aperture, shutter speed and frame count (classic film controls) are all very accessible on the M8.

 

What the M8's design lacked, I believe, was sufficient input from experienced *digital* photographers (especially working pros) who generally well understand the importance of having excellent access to ISO and EV controls (and WB, to a lesser degree, for folks who need to wire pictures). This was, of course, something I discussed at some length when I first reviewed the camera in September of 2006. Even the M7 has a better EV control system and the DMR has better ISO, EV and WB controls.

 

Using firmware changes only, Leica can make this camera more usable for those of us (and there are a lot) who need ready access to ISO and EV (preferably with our eyes still at the finder and our fingers still covering the shutter release).

 

It's too late for weather seals on the M8 but the "M9" should have those as well (again, as I emphasized in that first review). To me, so much of the M8's design *is* good that it only makes sense to refine and improve it further - via firmware for the M8 and via design improvements with whatever the successor might be.

 

As Leica's first purely digital body, the M8 is an excellent camera in many respects. But that step, for any company, is partly a learning experience (though many may be loath to hear that). Given what's been learned since the camera has been out, firmware should be (and has been, to some extent) tweaked to make the camera as functional as possible.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[hankg]

Write FW to get the camera operating as intended before attempting to add functionality that strictly is not necessary.

 

Jeff

 

This is a false choice. If you are talking about reliability -those with faulty cameras required hardware service -firmware isn't going to cure a faulty camera. Issues like AWB may or may not be 'fixable' in firmware.

 

In terms of getting the camera to work as intended. It was intended to be simple and responsive like a film M with control firmly in the hands of the photographer. Fiddling with buttons and an LCD menu to set functions as essential as exposure comp is neither simple or responsive.

 

For those who work with the camera daily and must nail the shot in fluid and fast moving circumstances having controls that work in real time is essential. Correct exposure is critical to the quality of the final image, the tolerance for exposure error is far less then WB which can be corrected in post with no quality penalty. For me the biggest omission in the M8's design is the lack of external analogue controls for EV and ISO. Nothing can be done about that, but a fix in firmware can go a long way in compensating for that oversight.

[sean_reid]

I have a question.

 

Could someone explain to me how this function would work if you had Auto Review set to "hold"?

 

Currently, in this situation (and once the the card write is complete), the left and right arrow buttons move you between images and the protect button brings up the protect menu. How, then, would the camera know that, actually, you wanted to change ISO/EV/WB? Would it be psychic? Or would the function be unavailable because the LCD is never blank?

 

So, let's see, you have a fast way of changing ISO and EV providing you don't have Auto Review set to "hold". Sean, when you discussed this with your buddies at Leica, how was this going to be resolved?

 

As a matter of record, pressing the SET button (such as I suggest), cancels the Image Review "hold"...

 

Hi Mark,

 

Would you please move this post to the other thread? This one is just for survey responses, as Andy reminded folks above.

[hankg]

I have a question.

 

Could someone explain to me how this function would work if you had Auto Review set to "hold"?

 

Currently, in this situation (and once the the card write is complete), the left and right arrow buttons move you between images and the protect button brings up the protect menu. How, then, would the camera know that, actually, you wanted to change ISO/EV/WB? Would it be psychic? Or would the function be unavailable because the LCD is never blank?

 

So, let's see, you have a fast way of changing ISO and EV providing you don't have Auto Review set to "hold". Sean, when you discussed this with your buddies at Leica, how was this going to be resolved?

 

As a matter of record, pressing the SET button (such as I suggest), cancels the Image Review "hold"...

 

Tap the shutter release which turns off the preview and puts you back in shooting mode. This and any ideas about doing it differently could have been answered in the thread for alternate ideas.

 

Yikes, you and Sean are like matter and anti-matter

[marknorton]

Sean, since your proposal suggests a specific implementation, I think it's important that the implications of what people seem so ready to sign up to are fully understood, so it is relevant to discuss here.

 

Let me be clear: I think your proposal, so widely supported here, is flawed in the detail.

 

Hank, yes, that will switch it off, but do you think it is reasonable to expect people to remember that they have to cancel the review before the fast change procedure will work?

[sean_reid]

This is a false choice. If you are talking about reliability -those with faulty cameras required hardware service -firmware isn't going to cure a faulty camera. Issues like AWB may or may not be 'fixable' in firmware.

 

In terms of getting the camera to work as intended. It was intended to be simple and responsive like a film M with control firmly in the hands of the photographer. Fiddling with buttons and an LCD menu to set functions as essential as exposure comp is neither simple or responsive.

 

For those who work with the camera daily and must nail the shot in fluid and fast moving circumstances having controls that work in real time is essential. Correct exposure is critical to the quality of the final image, the tolerance for exposure error is far less then WB which can be corrected in post with no quality penalty. For me the biggest omission in the M8's design is the lack of external analogue controls for EV and ISO. Nothing can be done about that, but a fix in firmware can go a long way in compensating for that oversight.

 

Ditto

[delander †]

Over the last few weeks quite a few people who have complained about aspects of the M8 have been told that they knew what they were getting in to, so tough if you dont like it go and buy something else.

 

That same logic applies to this scenario.

 

Jeff

[Realphotos]

This forum is really maturing when you can see Sean's original thread precipitating an answer and direction for Leica and this and other threads floating alternative ideas in a civilised manner. There really is progress here.

I want to direct a coment to Leica and say please proceed and make a decision a trial version of one or TWO of the best combinations being discussed or that they can "invent" that may be better.

Currently we all have a choice of lenses to use to fit our varying needs and tastes is it inconcievable that we may have a choice of Firmware.

I understand there is a new Mac that can also simiultaneously run Microsoft Windows to allow users the possibility to use their favoured programs regardless of operating system.

The developnent team at Leica have a wonderful resource in being able to "see" some of their clients needs on a forum like this. In previous times development teams lived much more tenuosly second guessing what their market wanted. Members ofthis forum are a real part of that market with clearly defined requirements. the final solution does not have to debunk the mainstream firmware. Quite simply it can be offered as a Beta with all the caveats that come with beta software. It only needs to be absolutely perfect in one regard. That is if you do not like it it must be full proof that you can reload the the current mainstream firmware.

Please Leica lets progress this firmware development. Give us some choices. We are smart people we want to progress.

[guywalder]

It's a trade off between the number of controls a camera has (and their different modes of operation) and the complexity of the menu system. If you restrict the number of direct access controls on the camera, you inevitably rely more on a menu system.

 

I count 15 controls on a Leica M8, the same on an R-D1, 36 on a Nikon D2x, so it's not surprising the Nikon has both greater functionality and a number of direct access buttons to the functions being discussed here.

 

interesting point, looking at my D2X, and discounting the AF related buttons, I actually only need (use regularly) half of the buttons that are there. i.e. a similar number to what the M8 already has.

Its just that some of the ones I use on the nikon are not available on the M8, and some of the ones I dont use on the nikon I also dont use on the M8 (well 'protect' at least!). No doubt other people use more of their nikon/canon buttons, but what makes the nikon so usable is that it gives me the choice. I completely fail to see how having the other buttons there makes the camera 'more complicated'.

I keep going on about it, but making more of the buttons use programmable could make the M8 much more adaptable without making it more complicated to use, it would be adaptable to a greater range of different users

[marknorton]

Guy, I agree the Protect button on the M8 is likely one of the least used and it would have been good for them to carry over the ideas of the Digilux 2 (which in effect has 4 programmable buttons, one for each of the arrow buttons) to the M8. At the least, labelling the Protect button "User" and providing the option to set one of ISO, EV, WB, Image Size or Protect directly would have been a step in the right direction.

[marknorton]

I agree, hardly "lively on topic discussion" here, more sycophantic pandering to a flawed proposal, IMHO.

[marknorton]

Mark

 

Please, keep THIS thread on Sean's topic. I have asked for this before.

 

If you have alternative suggestions, please, keep them to alternative threads. Mods will delete off topic posts within this thread, as Sean has specifically asked for a survey on his suggestions.

 

Yes, Sean has asked for a survey on his suggestions to which I have responded with both criticism of his proposal and suggestions of an alternative. I'm sorry if you think my being one of the few dissenting voices counts as being off topic.

[robertwright]

What we're trying to do in this thread is to define additional direct access to the required function and it's desirable to look at unused modality in the existing controls to provide both consistent and unambiguous operation. Pressing and holding the SET key provides exactly that because that mode is not used anywhere else in the camera. On the other hand, pressing an arrow key or the protect key (such as Sean suggests) to initiate change is only OK if that action is not already defined for the current mode of operation.

 

And there's a problem. Set the camera to auto review "hold" and the protect button is always active; the left/right arrow buttons are active just as soon as the image has been written to the card. If the left/right buttons are to be used to provide fast access to changing ISO and EV, how, exactly, would they do this if auto review was set to hold?

 

good point-I guess the only mitigation is that if you have set auto review to hold presumably you are not in a fast changing environment. My guess is that setting hold should not allow the arrow keys to be used for anything other than review. It is a trade off, assuming you want one-handed operation.

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[robertwright]

This forum is really maturing when you can see Sean's original thread precipitating an answer and direction for Leica and this and other threads floating alternative ideas in a civilised manner. There really is progress here.

I want to direct a coment to Leica and say please proceed and make a decision a trial version of one or TWO of the best combinations being discussed or that they can "invent" that may be better.

Currently we all have a choice of lenses to use to fit our varying needs and tastes is it inconcievable that we may have a choice of Firmware.

I understand there is a new Mac that can also simiultaneously run Microsoft Windows to allow users the possibility to use their favoured programs regardless of operating system.

The developnent team at Leica have a wonderful resource in being able to "see" some of their clients needs on a forum like this. In previous times development teams lived much more tenuosly second guessing what their market wanted. Members ofthis forum are a real part of that market with clearly defined requirements. the final solution does not have to debunk the mainstream firmware. Quite simply it can be offered as a Beta with all the caveats that come with beta software. It only needs to be absolutely perfect in one regard. That is if you do not like it it must be full proof that you can reload the the current mainstream firmware.

Please Leica lets progress this firmware development. Give us some choices. We are smart people we want to progress.

 

a way to do this is to branch the firmware and have a beta trial. People who want to try this out can load it and those who are not following the development need not be aware of it. At the end of the beta when the various ideas have been tested it would be folded into general release, and pages would be added to the user guide pdf describing the additional functionality.