Which LTM to M adapter for the Elmar 35 mm f/3.5 lens?

[Chuck]

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Quote

Hoping for some help from this knowledgeable group.

I’m confused as to which is the appropriate adapter for the LTM to M mount for an Elmar 35 mm f/3.5 lens.  I think it’s IRZOO, but I find no such indicator on photos of the adapters I’ve seen.  The adapter I now think is the right one has these markings on it:  “M2     50 mm     M3…..28-50 mm”.  I’m hoping that this indicates the this adapter can be used for lenses in any focal length from 28 mm to 50 mm, which obviously would include the 35 mm Elmar.   But, perhaps it means can be used for only a 28 mm or 50 mm lens.

 

Anyone happen to know how to positively identify the correct adapter to use to convert an Elmar 35mm f/3.5 screw-in mount to an M mount?  Thanks very much for any help. 
 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Chuck

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[a.noctilux]

If you want the right framelines showing in the M VF, as this Elmar is 3.5cm or 35mm,

you need 35/135 adapter, IRZOO/14097, https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/1409%3F

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[Darrell]

2 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

If you want the right framelines showing in the M VF, as this Elmar is 3.5cm or 35mm,

you need 35/135 adapter, IRZOO/14097, https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/1409%3F

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This is the adapter ring I use for the 35mm LTM  Elmar lens on my SL with the Leica M to L adapter, but it does not work on my M10 because the cutout for the focus lever uncovers the sensor that reads the six bit codes on the back of a newer lens. The camera thinks there is no lens attached. I don’t know if this works with the other M mount cameras. I don’t know if the other M mount cameras make the same assumption.

[Chuck]

1 hour ago, Darrell said:

This is the adapter ring I use for the 35mm LTM  Elmar lens on my SL with the Leica M to L adapter, but it does not work on my M10 because the cutout for the focus lever uncovers the sensor that reads the six bit codes on the back of a newer lens. The camera thinks there is no lens attached. I don’t know if this works with the other M mount cameras. I don’t know if the other M mount cameras make the same assumption.

Interesting.  I have the M10, M9M and M8.2.  I would plan on using on all three M bodies.  Hoping (but maybe doubting a little) that it will bring up the frame lines on the M9M and M8.2 

[Anbaric]

The correct Leitz adapter for 35mm or 135mm lenses is the ISOOZ:

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/ISOOZ

It may be engraved  'M2 21-35 M3 135mm' or just '13.5.cm', depending on its age. It will bring up the 35mm and 135mm framelines in cameras that have both. On an M2, which lacks 135mm framelines, it only brings up the 35mm. On the M3, which lacks 35mm framelines, it only brings up the 135mm.

The IRZOO is a different adapter, which will bring up 50mm framelines in all M cameras, and 75mm framelines in cameras that have them:

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/IRZOO

The 'M3 28-50' engraving (or the earlier '2.8-5cm' engraving) applies only to the M3, which lacks framelines wider than 50mm. It doesn't mean it will bring up the correct framelines for a 35mm lens in any Leica - only the ISOOZ does that.

The third adapter is the ISBOO, which brings up the correct frameline for 90mm (9cm) lenses on both the M2 and M3:

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/ISBOO

On later Leicas that have them, it will also bring up the 28mm framelines.

But all this may be moot because of the problem that @Darrell mentions. As you have cameras that use 6-bit coding, you may need a modern third party 35/135 frameline adapter that covers the sensor and allows coding, but also has provision for the infinity lock on the Elmar. I believe these are called 'Type III' adapters, like this one from Rayqual:

https://shop.cameraquest.com/leica-screw-mount-adapters/rayqual-24/35/135-6-bit-coded-leica-screw-mount-type-iii-leica-screw-mount-lens-to-leica-m-body-adapt

The '24' here is probably a reference to the M8, which uniquely has a 24/35 pair instead of a 35/135 pair.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Anbaric

[a.noctilux]

I don't have this lens but other small/compact LTM lenses, so beware of adapter without peripheral-cuttings.

With these "full" adapters, to use the lens with infinity lock, we need to take out the lock button.

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Then focussing is harder, without the focus button.

Bending the lever a bit could do maybe.

Edited August 27, 2023 by a.noctilux

[Chuck]

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1 hour ago, Anbaric said:

The correct Leitz adapter for 35mm or 135mm lenses is the ISOOZ:

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/ISOOZ

It may be engraved  'M2 21-35 M3 135mm' or just '13.5.cm', depending on its age. It will bring up the 35mm and 135mm framelines in cameras that have both. On an M2, which lacks 135mm framelines, it only brings up the 35mm. On the M3, which lacks 35mm framelines, it only brings up the 135mm.

The IRZOO is a different adapter, which will bring up 50mm framelines in all M cameras, and 75mm framelines in cameras that have them:

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/IRZOO

The 'M3 28-50' engraving (or the earlier '2.8-5cm' engraving) applies only to the M3, which lacks framelines wider than 50mm. It doesn't mean it will bring up the correct framelines for a 35mm lens in any Leica - only the ISOOZ does that.

The third adapter is the ISBOO, which brings up the correct frameline for 90mm (9cm) lenses on both the M2 and M3:

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/ISBOO

On later Leicas that have them, it will also bring up the 28mm framelines.

But all this may be moot because of the problem that @Darrell mentions. As you have cameras that use 6-bit coding, you may need a modern third party 35/135 frameline adapter that covers the sensor and allows coding, but also has provision for the infinity lock on the Elmar. I believe these are called 'Type III' adapters, like this one from Rayqual:

https://shop.cameraquest.com/leica-screw-mount-adapters/rayqual-24/35/135-6-bit-coded-leica-screw-mount-type-iii-leica-screw-mount-lens-to-leica-m-body-adapt

The '24' here is probably a reference to the M8, which uniquely has a 24/35 pair instead of a 35/135 pair.

I tried the ISOOZ adapter upon receiving it yesterday from KEH and could not make it work as far as being able to "click it into place" on the M9 following mounting it onto the Elmar lens.  I tried multiple times and came to the conclusion it must be the wrong adapter. I was unable to move the focus lever as well. The adapter looks like there is nothing wrong with it as far as condition goes. 

 

[Anbaric]

In a previous thread, it's suggested that even some Leitz adapters don't have cutouts for the infinity locks that some LTM lenses like the 3.5cm Elmar have - could this be the issue?

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/301321-infinity-stop-and-screw-to-m-adapter/#comment-3817177

In any case, using the IRZOO rather than the ISOOZ will cause a different problem - it will bring up the wrong frameline. I wouldn't bend the lever or remove the button to make a lens compatible with a specific adapter, I would try another adapter (or machine an existing adapter). The Rayqual Type III adapter linked above is supposed to be compatible with infinity locks and with 6-bit coding and will bring up the correct frameline (though this isn't a combination I've ever tried).

 

[Ecar]

3 hours ago, Anbaric said:

The Rayqual Type III adapter linked above is supposed to be compatible with infinity locks and with 6-bit coding and will bring up the correct frameline (though this isn't a combination I've ever tried).

Yes, it works. Ditto for other adapters that can also be 6-bit coded and have a cutout for the infinity lock pin. But Rayqual are those with the best tolerances in my experience (and, unfortunately, also the most expensive...).

Another option would be to start with a (good quality) 35-135 adapter that has an uninterrupted rim and use a Dremel to create a cutout for the infinity lock.

[UliWer]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Anbaric:

In a previous thread, it's suggested that even some Leitz adapters don't have cutouts for the infinity locks that some LTM lenses like the 3.5cm Elmar have - could this be the issue?

Yes, there are two different Leitz adapters, which will activate the 35mm frames:

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The left one is the "proper" one for 35mm LTM-lenses for the M2 and all later M-models. It has the cutout, so the focus-tabs of the older 3.5cm-lenses - like the Elmar - will work.

The right one is only marked "13.5cm", but will also activate the frames for 35mm. It was made during the times of the M3, when 35mm-lenses without goggles didn't have the right frames. For 135mm lenses there was no reason for the cutout, but of course the focus knob for the old 35mm lenses will not work.  With a 1:2.8/35mm or even an 35mm Summicron with LTM mount, which don't have the old focus knobs, the right version will work perfectly. 

Though: please do not alter neither the lenses focus tabs nor the adapter! For the 1:3.5/3.5cm Elmar or Summaron (these are the two lenses with focus tabs which need the cutouts)  you do not need a digital M's lens detection. Just switch it off. And you also don't need LiveView, or do you? 

[lct]

The 6-bit coded Kipon 35.135 works fine with my Elmar 35/3.5 from 1948 on the M11

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Edited August 27, 2023 by lct

[lct]

Live view? Why not? A LTM lens can perfectly work like an M-mount lens on modern M cameras.
Couple of snaps with that combo at f/5.6 below.

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[Anbaric]

I think it would be more convenient to have a coded adapter than not. Of course there is no specific code for a lens as old as this, but you can code it as a Summarit or some other 35mm lens you don't have and it will be recorded in the EXIF data (where it can later be edited to the correct lens name if you're fussy). It also saves switching detection on and off if you alternate between modern coded lenses and adapted LTM lenses, and avoids the live view auto shutoff issue mentioned above.

[lct]

10 hours ago, Anbaric said:

I think it would be more convenient to have a coded adapter than not. Of course there is no specific code for a lens as old as this, but you can code it as a Summarit or some other 35mm lens you don't have and it will be recorded in the EXIF data (where it can later be edited to the correct lens name if you're fussy). It also saves switching detection on and off if you alternate between modern coded lenses and adapted LTM lenses, and avoids the live view auto shutoff issue mentioned above.

Agreed but i don't know what "live view auto shutoff issue" can be. Sorry if it was explained elsewhere but i'm not good at the LUF's search function.

[Anbaric]

8 minutes ago, lct said:

Agreed but i don't know what "live view auto shutoff issue" can be. Sorry if it was explained elsewhere but i'm not good at the LUF's search function.

With at least some of the digital Ms, if the camera thinks a lens is not mounted functions like live view will shut off almost immediately (I suppose to protect the image sensor). This can happen if you use a type of adapter with a long cutout that leaves the 6-bit sensor uncovered, or if the sensor gets a reading from the 6-bit code it can't interpret (someone had this with a painted code that had started to wear off). I think this happens with some firmware versions (early M240?) even with lens detection switched off, though I believe they fixed this later. It shouldn't be an issue with coded Type III adapters.

[lct]

Thank you @Anbaric . I doubt this may happen with the M11 since LV still works with uncoded lenses on it. It may freeze with miscoded lenses though. I see little point in using uncoded adapters anyway so it is a useless risk for me.

[UliWer]

Anbaric' description is right: 

The "classical" Leitz adapter for 35mm-lenses has the long cutout to enable the movement of the focus knob.

With this cutout the camera's sensor to read the 6-bit-code is not covered and won't work, or even "think" that there is no lens attached and will shut the camera off, if you use LiveView and lens detection is enabled..

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I think, the late M-models differ in how they react if you use LiveView with lens detection switched off. As far as i remember the M (240) had a firmware update, which let you switch off lens detection, so you could use LV with an adapter which has the cutout. Same for the M10 from the beginning. But my M10-Monochrom shuts off when I try to use LV with lens detection turned off and an adapted lens which does not cover the sensor for the 6-bit-code.

 

 

 

[Alberti]

On 8/28/2023 at 12:48 AM, lct said:

The 6-bit coded Kipon 35.135 works fine with my Elmar 35/3.5 from 1948 on the M11

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Ict, does the lens then appear (mount as) de-centered? 

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[lct]

2 hours ago, Alberti said:

Ict, does the lens then appear (mount as) de-centered? 

I'll let you know when I'm back home, as I'm just coming off a coronary bypass...

[spydrxx]

3 hours ago, lct said:

I'll let you know when I'm back home, as I'm just coming off a coronary bypass...

Off topic, but make sure you go thru a cardiac rehab program regardless of how well you may feel. Spoken from experience and twenty years of counseling cardiac patients.