Where next for the digital M platform?

[colint544]

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When the M8 was launched, it was clear which rough edges needed to be knocked off for the M9. Top of the list was probably the move to a full frame sensor. When the M9 was launched, this was addressed. Each successive digital M became more refined, and closer to the original 1954 M3 design.

The M11 is pretty refined. But where do Leica go next? There is a trend now amongst enthusiast photographers for a move away from ever sharper pictures. Film is increasingly popular. There is still a gap between the look of analogue and digital pictures. Could Leica be looking at software to bridge that gap, to offer an alternative to an overtly 'digital' look? Likely a long shot.

But some refinements seem more obvious. A flush LCD screen has so far eluded the M. It still needs to be pushed out to free up internal space. And the camera remains taller than a traditional film M (barring the M5/7). A digital M with identical dimensions to an M6 would be desirable to many. 

Next year is the 70th anniversary of the M system. What might Leica have up their sleeve to commemorate the occasion?

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[frame-it]

8 minutes ago, colint544 said:

Next year is the 70th anniversary of the M system. What might Leica have up their sleeve to commemorate the occasion?

maybe a smaller M6 sized EVF M.. i.e a Full Frame[sensor via SL2] CL in an m6 sized body with M mount.

 

[Marc B-C]

It is an interesting discussion re sharpness. Whilst I do not have an M, I do have, however, a Tiffen Black Pro Mist 1/8 Filter permanently attached to my Q2 to tone down the severity of the sharpness. Perhaps not so good for architecture, but I prefer it in general.

I do not see film becoming mainstream again, however, except perhaps a very few extreme hobbyists.

[frame-it]

6 minutes ago, Marc B-C said:

except perhaps a very few extreme hobbyists.

maybe you mean only in the UK 🤣

 

[newtoleica]

I shoot my M7 with Tri-X and M10-P back to back. the M10 fills in where the M7 can't (colour, very low light, when I need to see what I'm getting re exposure etc) I process the files to match Tri-X if B&W. Where digital photography needs to go IMHO is AFFORDABLE high quality home pigment printing to match silver or platinum print output. The image capture aspect is fine (having used film since 1975 and digital since 2003), its the final output that lags still....

It's tricky for Leica if they rely on 'latest and greatest' churn but I think the digital M reached its peak with the M10P/R for all purposes that matter to an M user. sure you can make it more of a interchangeable lens mirrorless... but...

[FrozenInTime]

I'm from the UK, so have pushed back against the excesses of 60 Mpixel and perfect APO lenses by consuming more film and picking lenses like the 35/1.4 Nokton and 50/1.5 Heliar targeting screen viewing or printing sizes up to 8x10".

At this end of the spectrum, Leica needs a more organic digital camera that is as fun and easy to use as the X100V; they were moving on the right path with the CL, then they blew it.

A perfect M would have the 24 Mpixel SL2-S like sensor, a projected in viewfinder live histogram, and cost a lot less than a M11.

However my feeling is the M system will not get back onto track, and more affordable, until a sensor with a global shutter becomes available and the mechanical shutter can be removed.

[colint544]

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7 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

However my feeling is the M system will not get back onto track, and more affordable, until a sensor with a global shutter becomes available and the mechanical shutter can be removed.

Yes, the mechanical shutter, and current lack of IBIS, seem like identifiable bottlenecks in the progress of the digital M.

[evikne]

3 hours ago, colint544 said:

But some refinements seem more obvious. A flush LCD screen has so far eluded the M. It still needs to be pushed out to free up internal space. And the camera remains taller than a traditional film M (barring the M5/7). A digital M with identical dimensions to an M6 would be desirable to many.

Removing the screen would at least solve the thickness issue. I'll be very disappointed if the rumors that the D-series will be discontinued turn out to be true.

[Photoworks]

 an M6 with EVF sounds promising for the 70th ann. should be a challenge!

 

There are a few people that where long-time film photographers, and made videos about the Portra 400 and M11 side by side.
The result was that the M11 had all the benefits of M7 with film and more.

I don't think I would get back to film unless a specific panorama camera. 

I think Film simulation will come to M11, but not sure I like the one from the Q3, I like to see LUT that I can import myself. I will make my Portra 400 look.

I am very happy with M11, sure I like to see improvement, but they are more personal in the way I shoot.

[Smogg]

It seems to me that further development should be in the field of color science. Hasselblad X2D gives noticeably better colors than Leica, despite the fact that Leica has optics that are obviously better. What prevents Leica from taking this aspect more seriously?

[Kiwimac]

7 hours ago, evikne said:

Removing the screen would at least solve the thickness issue. I'll be very disappointed if the rumors that the D-series will be discontinued turn out to be true.

Since you can’t buy one, it’s essentially been discontinued already!🤣

[Kiwimac]

3 hours ago, Smogg said:

It seems to me that further development should be in the field of color science. Hasselblad X2D gives noticeably better colors than Leica, despite the fact that Leica has optics that are obviously better. What prevents Leica from taking this aspect more seriously?

Yes I agree. 
 

Given Leica’s long film history, I’d like to see Fuji style film specific colour science, both in camera and as official Leica LRC plug ins. 
 

Overall, the M11 is a great deal better than I’d expected although I bought mine almost 18 months after launch so many of the initial issues were already ironed out. 
 

Personally, the only physical changes I can think of are already on the M11M and will probably be on the M11P. 
 

A return to things like the Passport warranty would be nice. Leica have a penchant for slashing warranty cover. I have a pair of 2007 Leica binoculars that have a 30 year warranty. The identical model bought today has only 10 years. 

[hdmesa]

Not much to improve on from the M11 except incremental things or controversial things.

 

[rich_]

The M11 questionnaire at the top of the forum most likely contains a few of the options within that Leica may take forward for certain new models.  IBIS, EVF etc. 

Edited August 20, 2023 by rich_

[Jeff S]

16 hours ago, newtoleica said:

Where digital photography needs to go IMHO is AFFORDABLE high quality home pigment printing to match silver or platinum print output. The image capture aspect is fine (having used film since 1975 and digital since 2003), it’s the final output that lags still....

 

Compared to the cost of new Leica cameras and lenses, a modern printer remains the least expensive part of my digital workflow.  And I spend far less now on paper and inks than I used to spend on film and darkroom gear/supplies. For me, digital printing is far more flexible and convenient than the darkroom ever was. And the results, if I do my job well, can be superb. But a pigment print is still different from a silver (or platinum) print (unless one uses a hybrid approach). 
 

I find that the one area where digital capture hasn’t yet matched film capture is in the highlights (B&W), e.g., in subtle sky tonalities.

Jeff

[dugby]

How about a digital M 70th Anniversary model with battery replaced by a film advance level that cocks the shutter and also includes a piezoelectric generator to provide sufficient charge for one image capture (per winder advance).

If there’s insufficient charge from one lever stroke of the piezoelectric generator , then maybe 24 or 36 lever strokes would be more nostalgic to generate sufficient charge …..

[LocalHero1953]

19 hours ago, Marc B-C said:

I do not see film becoming mainstream again, however, except perhaps a very few extreme hobbyists.

That's the first time I've been called an extreme hobbyist. I may have to tell my insurance company😁

[LocalHero1953]

I agree with Colin's notion that the evolution of the M can be seen as Leica trying to make a digital camera with the feel of the M3. So I don't see them going down the route of replacing the OVF/RF with an EVF, or an EVF projected within the OVF - too complicated in use. Nor do I see them changing the design to cut costs - as long as people are still buying them. The M4-2 was way out of my price bracket in 1980, so pricing it out of the hands of younger/less-well-paid photographers is nothing new.

I can envisage improvements that are effectively invisible: IBIS, better weatherproofing. The most obvious problem with the M11 though, even if it is only aesthetic, is the horrible shutter feel/sound. Leica should return to a mechanism that gives a light snick sound (and only a light snick) that is immediate and in sync with the taking of the photo.

I don't see a major problem with Leica's colour science, and I certainly don't think they can be criticised for not paying it enough attention. I would not want Leica colours to become more like Fuji. It can be improved, I'm sure, but it would not be top of my priorities. 

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[MyLeicaWorld]

For me a perfect M should have recognizable results.. for example if one sees a photo he must say “ahh that’s leica”  but how will leica do this? With a sensor and software long studied and perfectly ended .. a sensor resulting with  files which have film like colors and no need for an editing .. that would make me think “ ahh now that’s a true leica like the M6 era  ..

Edited August 20, 2023 by MyLeicaWorld

[Kwesi]

I think that once increased processing power and its power consumption and heat dissipation issues are resolved, we are going to see the hybrid shutter of the M11 replaced by a global shutter. Perhaps in an M13? Until then some of the easy “improvements” will be 1tb internal memory (M12) and incremental megapixel increases (75mp in M13).