Which film Leica to start with? Need your inputs in this jungle.

[a.noctilux]

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M4 is such a Classic M that I had undescriptible luck when I purchased M4 as my first Leica M.

After using so many Leica M after M4, I reconsider this M4 as complete M to take good images with good lens and good film.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/141350-i-love-my-m4/?do=findComment&comment=4828194

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[Huss]

On 8/8/2023 at 2:10 PM, Sandokan said:

..

The M7 is used with 28, 50 and 75mm lenses (0.72x viewfinder). 

Don't forget the Zeiss Ikon which has a better viewfinder than the M7. 

I never understood that comment about the Zeiss Ikon.  It does have a bigger VF than the M7, but that's it.  It's not better.

How so?

The Zeiss VF - unless you have your eye perfectly centered, will flare out the RF patch.  You cannot see the exposure LEDs in bright sunlight.  And worst of all, the RF patch is not linked to the frame lines, so as the frame lines move when you focus to compensate for parallax, the RF patch remains stationary.  With Leicas the RF patch moves with the frame lines so it is always centered.  I much prefer that as I use the centered RF patch as a point of reference when I shoot quickly knowing how the frame lines correspond to it.

It's why I sold my Zeiss and kept my M7s.  That and the fact that the cheap plastic gear train in my Zeiss failed.  But that's another story..

[blackdot]

This is totally a personal preference thing, but for me, I love a classic M2 without timer. Why did you decide against it? My next favorite is an M6 because I could never justify the price of an MP. My first ever Leica was an M4-2, and I think it is a fine and underrated camera.

[Borna]

Thanks for all the kind replies. I went today to my local Leica dealer and felt the M4, M4-P and the M7. The M7 was actually quite nice, fully reminds me of digital Leica. Not sure if I enjoyed the half press click in comparison to the m4 and -p version. In stock there was a M4-P for 1800 usd, mint condition, CLA'd and also box with instruction book and certificate. The M4 was tad cheaper, I believe 1600 usd but veerry beaten up, externally shit, bombed with scratches but CLA'd and internally and mechanically great according to the shop keeper. Perhaps I should go for the M4-P. I will think more about it. One positive thing about it is the hot-shoe comparison to M4, in case of flash photography which might happen. 

[a.noctilux]

Borna, M4-P is very nice choice.

 

I have some doubt using flash with Leica M.

The sync. speed is 1/50 very limiting.

I never (well rarely on M) use electronic flash on M4-P, nice to have hot shoe but I heard that the plastic bit can break (becoming britten over time).

Which lens will be in use ?

Edited August 10, 2023 by a.noctilux

[Borna]

17 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Borna, M4-P is very nice choice.

 

I have some doubt using flash with Leica M.

The sync. speed is 1/50 very limiting.

I never (well rarely on M) use electronic flash on M4-P, nice to have hot shoe but I heard that the plastic bit can break (becoming britten over time).

Which lens will be in use ?

Thanks for your reply. It would be Summicron 35mm asph (chrome). Although I also have an black Summarit 35mm, might exchange this to an 50 or 75mm later on. Well, I am not really a flash user per-say, but to have the option is nice. Not that I would use the self timer the M4 offers but it is a fun feature  Sometimes I take quirky selfies with my M8 and M-P. 

[madNbad]

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6 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

Borna, M4-P is very nice choice.

 

I have some doubt using flash with Leica M.

The sync. speed is 1/50 very limiting.

I never (well rarely on M) use electronic flash on M4-P, nice to have hot shoe but I heard that the plastic bit can break (becoming britten over time).

Which lens will be in use ?

midnight camera repair(also a forum member)based in Hong Kong 3D prints replacement flash blocks. DAG just installed one in my M4-2 when it was in for service. They are nicely made and are a much stronger material than the original plastic Leica used. 
For flash, I have been looking at the little Meike MK320. They’re small, offer both tilt and swivel plus a lot of users adjustable settings. The cost about seventy usd. I had one for my Sony A7II when I thought it was going to be used as an actual camera before relegating it to the copy stand. I was impressed with its build quality and versatility. It would be a nice flash for fill and a good replacement for my fifty year old Vivitar 253.

The M4-P would be a good choice. Early ones had brass top plates and can be identified by the recess finder window like on the M4 or M4-2. They have the six frame line layout that Leica still uses with current production cameras. It would be a very good choice.

 

[Tom R]

On 8/8/2023 at 4:37 PM, Borna said:

I started shooting digital Leicas since a couple of years now and have been enjoying it. A while ago I started to think that it would be fun to start with analog, this made me try out to see if I would like it - meaning, I got myself an Minolta Freedom Escort P&S for around 25-30 bucks, couple of rolls of film, batch of chemicals, my grandfathers old Agfa Rondinax 35U daylight dev tank, also tried the Paterson tank, cheap epson flatbed scanner, got the trays, the enlarger, the lamp etc. Slow and behold, suddenly I have a fully functional amateur dark room and home dry lab for less than 150 bucks sourced during april-august , all of this to see, is it for me or not? Well I am so far having a blast and I am leaning and enjoying all of it, so finally now I have decided to go for the analog Leica experience. 

So, my question is, how long is a thread?

I have decided against M1, M2 and M3 and M5, however the M4 is very interesting and price wise a good option to learn to use the tool properly. Although I wish to have a black chrome model but I think that is bit too expensive. Then there is the M4-2 and M4-P, I am not sure what to think about these models. I know all about them, but something buggs me off. Help me out here please? 

Then we have the M6 which basically is an M4-P with light meter, but is it really worth 1000$+ more?

Then there is an M7, which is slight more expensive than the M6, reminds me of my Leica M8 in terms of operation when I look at videos on youtube. 

Then there is M-P which 'basically' is an modern M6 but painted black? 

Then at last there is the M-A in lovely black chrome, which is basically an modern M4?! 

I have held the M4 in couple of occasions in a Leica Frankfurt and pushed it around a bit, same with an MP. But still, I am not sure. What shall I do? Is the M4 a good camera to start with or is it better to go for the M4-P? M4-2? M6? I could stretch for an used MP/M-A if needed. I have even found a decent priced M7 which is at the same price of an mid-ranged priced M6. Certain things I like with the M4 but I am not sure if it is the right model to start with.

And at last, I am most likely to sell my M-P 240 with all of its accessories to 'upgrade' myself to an decent film Leica, thus why I am asking about all of them. Arghhh

Thanks for your inputs. 

Depends. I don't know anything about your needs, current work/interests, etc. That said, I have owned and used M2, M3, M4, M4-P and one digital body, the M8.2. I still use the M4 and the M4-Ps (I have two of these) and the M8.2 (rarely). All of these cameras are fairly old, which means they will likely have problems. Make sure that you have a dependable technician to perform repairs. 

The M2 and the M3 bodies were first-class machines. Dependable. Period. That said, these cameras assume you're using 35mm, 50mm lenses (and perhaps a 90mm ... anything bigger is problematic with any rangefinder).  Prefer the M4-P if you need 28mm and 75mm frame lines in addition to the 35 through 90. In addition to the additional frame lines, the M4-2 and M4-P provide a working hot shoe and a quick load mechanism. If you're only interested in 50mm and don't care about "modern" conveniences, such as quick load mechanisms, working hot shoes, you cannot do better than a single-stroke M3. If you care more about 35mm support and don't want/need the "modern" amenities, then the M2.  If you want only 35, 50 and 90mm frame lines AND a working hot shoe, then the M4-2 might suit you. 

Note, I said nothing about the M6, or the M7. Never used them; never needed either. Others on this thread will doubtless be better informed about these models. 

I've never considered the M-A because of its high cost. But, the M-A is fifty years newer than most of the bodies just mentioned and that might be worth considering. 

 

[Lelmer]

On 8/8/2023 at 10:37 PM, Borna said:

I started shooting digital Leicas since a couple of years now and have been enjoying it. A while ago I started to think that it would be fun to start with analog, this made me try out to see if I would like it - meaning, I got myself an Minolta Freedom Escort P&S for around 25-30 bucks, couple of rolls of film, batch of chemicals, my grandfathers old Agfa Rondinax 35U daylight dev tank, also tried the Paterson tank, cheap epson flatbed scanner, got the trays, the enlarger, the lamp etc. Slow and behold, suddenly I have a fully functional amateur dark room and home dry lab for less than 150 bucks sourced during april-august , all of this to see, is it for me or not? Well I am so far having a blast and I am leaning and enjoying all of it, so finally now I have decided to go for the analog Leica experience. 

So, my question is, how long is a thread?

I have decided against M1, M2 and M3 and M5, however the M4 is very interesting and price wise a good option to learn to use the tool properly. Although I wish to have a black chrome model but I think that is bit too expensive. Then there is the M4-2 and M4-P, I am not sure what to think about these models. I know all about them, but something buggs me off. Help me out here please? 

Then we have the M6 which basically is an M4-P with light meter, but is it really worth 1000$+ more?

Then there is an M7, which is slight more expensive than the M6, reminds me of my Leica M8 in terms of operation when I look at videos on youtube. 

Then there is M-P which 'basically' is an modern M6 but painted black? 

Then at last there is the M-A in lovely black chrome, which is basically an modern M4?! 

I have held the M4 in couple of occasions in a Leica Frankfurt and pushed it around a bit, same with an MP. But still, I am not sure. What shall I do? Is the M4 a good camera to start with or is it better to go for the M4-P? M4-2? M6? I could stretch for an used MP/M-A if needed. I have even found a decent priced M7 which is at the same price of an mid-ranged priced M6. Certain things I like with the M4 but I am not sure if it is the right model to start with.

And at last, I am most likely to sell my M-P 240 with all of its accessories to 'upgrade' myself to an decent film Leica, thus why I am asking about all of them. Arghhh

Thanks for your inputs. 

Keep your M-P240, which is a great camera, and get a M4...that's more or less what I have done, with no regret at all. What about the lenses?

[otto.f]

23 hours ago, M10R said:

- I can estimate exposure, so I don't need any film M with built-in meter (although I have a good spot meter, but I prefer estimating exposure when shooting on Tri-x, so I don't use the spot meter with film M)
- M4 framelines are simple and enough for my use

- learning to estimate exposure doesn't need to last long, and it will help you being faster with a digital M. Sometimes I hate this through the lens metering fetish, exposes completely wrong, it costs time and worry and potentially threatens your skills. Just like these navigation apps, which on the long run drains your memory and knowledge of the whereabouts  

- I use the Summilux 75 on my M4 intuitively and I never had a disappointment.

[Borna]

2 hours ago, Lelmer said:

Keep your M-P240, which is a great camera, and get a M4...that's more or less what I have done, with no regret at all. What about the lenses?

I have two 35mm's, Summarit 2.5 and Summicron ASP! But might exchange the summarit to a 50 or 75 with time.

[CSG123]

For me, the M4 is the only Leica camera I would own.  Mine is from the first batch of 3000.  Since then, it's had two CLA's that I'm aware of.  I had to do the second when the shutter curtain separated.  Work was done by DAG and while it was OK other than the shutter curtain, I didn't realize how much better it could be after the CLA part of it was done.  I use Sunny 16 for the easy stuff and a Seikonic for the more challenging stuff.  I wouldn't go near any of Leica's new rangefinders.

[davidmknoble]

@Borna, I’d give you this to consider.

You just setup a ‘darkroom’ for ‘$150.’  You said you’d like to see what it’s about.  You appear to have some nice M lenses.  The lens makes more difference than the camera.

Stick to your inexpensive setup.  Find a nice CLA’d M-2, M-4 (probably the least expensive) and buy an inexpensive sekonic light meter (which is less than the $1000 premium for the M6).

Give it a go and if you like it a lot, consider investing in a more modern body.  If you don’t want to continue, you can sell the M and you won’t have invested too much.  The CLA is important for an older used camera to be sure a) the shutter speeds are reasonably close to what they say, and b) the shutter cloth is in good shape.  An M-2 is the oldest camera that loads the same as the modern MP or MA.

Note that the M6ttl and the M7 have shutter dials that are backwards (rotate opposite) compared to every other Leica M film camera.  I avoid those because I can’t reverse my thinking that fast all the time.

Just a thought.

[Martin B]

Short answer: M6, M7 are IMO heavily overpriced in the used market currently and likely for some time to come.
M-P and M-A are both new and used very pricey. Biggest advantage of them over earlier M models is the flare-free M-P rangefinder patch. 
I have the M4-2, and it is a great camera. Not as hyped up online as the M4 and M4-P versions, but does practically the same - it was just made in Canada for lower manufacturing cost at the time. Other than not having in-camera metering, it is basically the same as the M6 non-TTL. 

[Huss]

M6 seem to be now going in the $2500 range from what I have seen on local sites including fredmiranda.com.  Some people on ebay still think they are worth $3500...

But my advice would be to get the best condition M for the money - whichever M that is.

[otto.f]

6 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

M6ttl and the M7 have shutter dials that are backwards (rotate opposite)

You mean they are the first that operate in the right direction: for both time and exposure it is clockwise: more light, anticlockwise less light

[hepcat]

25 minutes ago, otto.f said:

You mean they are the first that operate in the right direction: for both time and exposure it is clockwise: more light, anticlockwise less light

No, they rotate backwards from every other Leica M body.   Exactly why I dumped Nikon. 

[hansvons]

5 hours ago, Huss said:

M6 seem to be now going in the $2500 range from what I have seen on local sites including fredmiranda.com.

A competently, freshly CLA-ed M6 from a professional dealer with the usual one-year warranty is a 3.000+ EUR experience on the old continent. It's worth it, considering that a new M6 is almost double the price, and you will have a leeway of over 500 rolls until the next CLA of 500 EUR. Most M6s will need an earlier CLA at some point because they weren't used enough, including M6-Neu.

[madNbad]

4 hours ago, hepcat said:

No, they rotate backwards from every other Leica M body.   Exactly why I dumped Nikon. 

Are you looking through the viewfinder when changing shutter speeds? The M5, M6 TTL and M7 were designed so you could easily change speeds with your eye at the finder.

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[Martin B]

2 hours ago, hansvons said:

A competently, freshly CLA-ed M6 from a professional dealer with the usual one-year warranty is a 3.000+ EUR experience on the old continent. It's worth it, considering that a new M6 is almost double the price, and you will have a leeway of over 500 rolls until the next CLA of 500 EUR. Most M6s will need an earlier CLA at some point because they weren't used enough, including M6-Neu.

For > $3K, IMO a used Leica M6 is not worth it. You are fairly close in price point to a brand new M-P when adding another $1K. Glad I got my M6 non-TTL in 2016 for $1300.