90 Summicron M vs 90 Summicon ASPH or the APO

[George Collier]

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I have a 90 Summicron M that I use with M4's, shooting Trix, HP5, and FP4, all processed in Rodinal. I've considered one of the newer lenses listed in the subject title, but don't know if it's worth the expense, for film. I have an M9, but don't use it much (it has a bit of the corrosion problem in the sensor).

Is the difference in performance between the lenses noticeable with film?

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[Gregm61]

My experience using M4/M6 as well as M262/240/246 bodies is, there are so many details that mask any difference between ASPH/APO and non ASPH/APO lenses that I wouldn’t bother if all I shot was film.

The film itself, from exposure to the quality of the processing, to scanning/printing, etc; the medium to me does not warrant the most optimum in lens design compared to images directly off a digital sensor. There are so many other factors that affect final image quality more when it comes to film.

[adan]

There is not such thing as separate ASPH or APO 90mm Summicrons. There are several non-ASPH/APO versions, up through 1998(?), and then the APO-Summicron-M-ASPH (ASMA) we still have today.

But to answer your core question - YES, there will generally be a visible difference between the pre-APO/ASPH 90s Summicrons v.1/2/3, and the 90 ASMA, even on film.

The ASMA will have more overall contrast (tonality), slightly more microcontrast (edge clarity and textures), and slightly better raw resolution, and the overall contrast increase will "carve" the image more intensely into the silver-impregnated Jello™ we call film emulsion. 

You can think fo the ASMA as having "built-in Rodinal" characteristics, to some extent.

Although those are also affected by how the lens is used (subject distance, exact aperture set, and so on). Which may reduce the apparent differences at times.

And it is, of course, a matter of taste which rendering is "better."

[lct]

Not sure there is a Summicron 90/2 asph non apo. Only ones i have experience with are v2 (11123), v3 (11136) and apo (11884, 11885, 11636), the latter being called both asph and apo. V2 is my favorite but it is a bulky lens. V3 is smaller but it has more color fringing. It is a problem on digital but not on film though AFAIK. As for the apo it has the same size as v3. It is a very sharp lens with no significant flaw but this very sharpness renders portraits somewhat harsh, at least on digital. Matter of taste though. On film, i never tried the 90/2 apo so there is nothing i can add sorry.

Edited July 13, 2023 by lct

[charlesphoto99]

I had both back in the film days, and honestly, the APO was bit better wide open but I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. Both sold long ago. My current 90 is the 90mm Elmarit-M and it is a fantastic lens, as good if not better than the Summicrons. Also smaller, lighter and easier to focus. 

[Ouroboros]

12 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I had both back in the film days, and honestly, the APO was bit better wide open but I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. Both sold long ago. My current 90 is the 90mm Elmarit-M and it is a fantastic lens, as good if not better than the Summicrons. Also smaller, lighter and easier to focus. 

Whilst I agree that the 90mm elmarit-m f2.8 is excellent and still something of a bargain in Leica terms, the 90mm ‘ASMA’ (horrible abbreviation!) is noticeably better.  
On my M10-R, the difference was enough to convince me the upgrade from the 90mm elmarit-m f2.8 to the 90mm ‘ASMA’ was worthwhile.

Unless you’re using a high resolution transparency film such as Velvia, the difference might not be so clear, but the 90mm ‘ASMA’ is my favourite Leica M lens even though it is not my most used lens.

It’s a stunning portrait lens and despite it’s size is nicely balanced on an M camera.

[adan]

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On 7/14/2023 at 1:12 AM, Ouroboros said:

the 90mm ‘ASMA’ (horrible abbreviation!)

Really?

I invented it (~20 years ago, on another forum, for the introduction of the 75mm ASMA), and I thought it had a wonderful ethereal ring to it.

Like Ozma of Oz*, or the cOSMOs around us.  

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozma_of_Oz

[Ouroboros]

26 minutes ago, adan said:

Really?

I invented it (~20 years ago, on another forum, for the introduction of the 75mm ASMA), and I thought it had a wonderful ethereal ring to it.

Like Ozma of Oz*, or the cOSMOs around us.  

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozma_of_Oz

That explains it.  Did you also invent '3D pop' ?

 

[adan]

Can't take the blame for that one.  

Does it have anything to do with an ice lolly?

 

[lct]

I did not know that ASMA thing was an invention of our good Andy Piper here. I thought it was another oddity from Erwin Puts, peace to his soul. Render to Caesar...

[pippy]

6 hours ago, adan said:

...I invented it (ASMA), and I thought it had a wonderful ethereal ring to it...

It takes my breath away, Andy!...

Thanks for the link to OZ; fascinating stuff. I had heard of Tik Tok but didn't know the origin. Really enjoyed that!

Philip.

Edited July 16, 2023 by pippy

[lct]

21 minutes ago, pippy said:

It takes my breath away, Andy!..

Could make me laugh if asthma were not such a painful disease. Makes me smile anyway