135 APO Telyt - Usability and Usage Question

[lldd]

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I have an M10-R and 50 Summilux as my only camera/lens.  Looking to add a 135mm lens.  I love the idea of using the Leica 135 on my M, but am concerned about focusing, size vs. M (balance and hand feel), etc.  At current prices, for a few more hundred $, I can buy a Canon R5 with their amazing 135 and focus capability.  Not sure which direction to go.  For those who have Leica 135, how much do you use it, how is it for accurate focusing?  I really don't want to buy it and end up not using it.  But if it's pretty straightforward, then perhaps it's the best option.  In addition, adding an SL3 for the M135 might be an option down the road as well.  I appreciate any insights/experience any of you might have.

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[wda]

An inexpensive way to settle your question is to buy an old 135mm Elmar. (Search my website for 'A gem from the past'). Retain it for a year and see how much you use it. Then decide whether you can justify an upgrade. In my experience, it is a lens for occasional use. That is why most used specimens show little signs of use. Do leave a comment if you visit my site.

 

[spydrxx]

I second WDA's recommendation, having owned a number of 135s over the years, including several for Leica M and LTM bodies. The Elmar is quite inexpensive, yet a very good lens. Further, the head is removable for use on the visoflex (not the electronic one) as well as the bellows. Skip the temptation to get the Elmarit...it is big and heavy and most buyers quickly tire of it and sell it. I've found that I prefer it to the 135 Tele-Elmarit, the earlier scalloped focusing ring version which also has a removable head - mainly because the Elmar (LTM) is usable on both my M bodies and LTM bodies. Initially many people have compositional/focusing difficulty with the 135 due to the small viewing size. I've never had that problem, and composition wise, an auxiliary finder with its bright lines makes for an overall easy job. Weight isn't an issue with the Elmar either. 

I've attached a downsized  test shot taken with my latest 135/4 Elmar - shot thru a window focusing was on the power lines about 2 blocks away. (click on image for clearer view)

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[lct]

2 hours ago, lldd said:

I have an M10-R and 50 Summilux as my only camera/lens.  Looking to add a 135mm lens.  I love the idea of using the Leica 135 on my M, but am concerned about focusing, size vs. M (balance and hand feel), etc. [...]

At full aperture, the Apo-Telyt 135/3.4 is at the limit of the RF accuracy on any Leica M camera but the M3 or the M6 0.85x. For good hit rates at full aperture, better use an EVF or an optical magnifier with it. Now f/4 is less critical but there are excellent 135/4 lenses at Leica, especially the Tele-Elmar 135/4 that i can hardly recognize on my own pics when compared to the Apo-Telyt.  The Elmar 135/4 is a very good lens too and is rather inexpensive but it is a taller lens. The Elmarit 135/2.8 (there is no such thing as a "Tele-Elmarit" 135) is a very good lens too but its goggles are not comfortable to use or carry. Bottom line, unless you want the best of the best for the pleasure of ownership or otherwise, you may wish to try a Tele-Elmar "not rit"  135/4 and if f/4 is not too slow for your needs, you might well forget that the Apo-Telyt ever existed.

Edited July 3, 2023 by lct

[stephan54]

How well it focusses totally depends on the combination camera and lens.

On my M10 I had trouble getting focus wide open with the Telyt 135. Then I bought a new Summicron 75 which was terribly off.

Sent in the camera  with four lenses to Leica and the camera and four lenses were calebrated perfectly: not only the 75 but also the 135 gives a high rate of return. So it depends on how well the 135 is calibrated.

 

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Edited July 3, 2023 by stephan54

[lct]

It is not, or not only, a matter of calibration. On M cameras like M10 or M11, the effective base length (EBL) of the rangefinder is 50.60mm. This is not too much of a problem at f/4 for 135mm lenses since the critical base length of the RF is inferior at that aperture (45.56mm). But at f/3.4, the critical base length is superior (53.60mm). Better use an EVF then or an optical magnifier that will enhance the EBL value. On M10 and M11 cameras, Leica recommends stopping down "by at least 2 stops" as a precaution. Excerpt of the M11 manual below.

Quote

Despite the high precision of the rangefinder on the camera, exact focusing with 135 mm lenses with an open aperture cannot be guaranteed due to the very low depth of field. We therefore recommend stopping down by at least 2 stops. Live View mode, on the other hand, plus the various setting aids provided, allow unrestricted use of this lens.

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by lct

[Kiwimac]

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Just use Visoflex?

[Gregm61]

If the camera/lens are well calibrated with one another and if your eyesight is good enough, a 135mm f3.4 Telyt can be focused well with an M240-style body, with no EVF or eyepiece magnifier. I have an M262 and M246 that work really, really well with the 135mm f3.4. Last week I sent my MP240 to DAG to have the rangefinder tweeked as it slightly back-focuses, completely ruining any ability to work well with the 90mm f2 APO for the most part or the 135mm f3.4 at all..

I was out at the lake yesterday morning with the M246 and captured a few images with the 135mm f3.4 fitted with a yellow filter.

 

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Gregm61

[lct]

Nice pics but you were not focusing at f/3.4 there were you. At f/4, f/5.6 or f/8, the Apo-Telyt behaves like an f/4, f/5.6 or f/8 lens as far as focusing is concerned, sorry for stating the obvious.

[Gregm61]

Even at f4 and f5.6, if the lens and camera are not well adjusted for one another the 135 APO can be difficult/frustrating to use.

It's not just at f3.4 that the lens can be a challenge. If it was easy even stopped down a little, there would be more owners.

[hunterits]

I am new to this part of the forum coming from R8 DMR and Q series, but recently jumped into the M11. I have history with range finding focus from the old days so the focus was not new to me.  Loving the M11 (without a EVF) and part of the learning process was to get the 135 APO Telyt-M f/3.4 lens. It took a lot of practice to nail focusing. I, personally, love the challenge and have gotten good at it and love the lens. However, if you are not into practicing with the camera and lens, I would suggest you rent one first and try it out. 

[Robert Blanko]

I mainly use the APO telyt for landscape photography where the focus is usually simply set to infinity. But I also used it for architecture photography and cannot remember any issues regarding the focusing with the rangefinder.

In any case, using the visoflex might help, if you feel uncomfortable with relying on the rangefinder.

[lct]

Mis-adjustment is to be avoided with any critical lens, especially 135/3.4, 90/2 and 75/1.4, let alone 95/1.5 and 75/1.25 i have no experience with i guess. As far as my lenses are concerned the Apo-Telyt is only a challenge in RF mode at f/3.4. At f/4 and on, i don't find it more difficult to focus than my Tele-Elmar 135/4. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by lct

[LeicaR10]

lldd,   You might find this Leica Conversation with Phil Blair who is a Leica Academy instructor in the Pacific Northwest to be useful to resolving your questions about the M 135.  He uses the M camera with 50mm and 135mm lenses for his photography.  The combination of the two lenses or at least the way he uses them, to create his landscapes are IMO, both interesting and creative.  A different approach to "seeing" and capturing a vision for that moment in time.  Two perspectives of the same scene.  The video might give you some ideas and inspiration for your own creative photographs.  r/ Mark

Try:   

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by LeicaR10

[overexposed]

i really like the lens, even wide open a sharp performer, WHEN the focus sits!

wide open i would recomment to use the EVF/backscreen with focus peaking.

but with the RF it can be tricky to get a perfect focus, unless you want to stitch a landscape pano, just put the camera to infinity and f8/f11 and you are good to go!

attached image shows the sharpness wide open at mid range

 

cheers

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[lldd]

All, thanks for the recommended alternate lens options, along with all of the other thoughts and suggestions.  Including the video - he's local to where I am.

I'm going to see if the local Leica store will let me borrow their display copy for an hour so I can walk around and try it.  Otherwise, I'll see if I can rent it somewhere.  Based on comments here, it seems like this is a possible solution, and I'd really prefer to stay in the M environment instead of sampling other cameras.

[Keith (M)]

I have used my APO-Telyt on M240, M7, M10M & M11, always using the normal viewfinder.  Can't say I have ever had any issues with focussing whatever the subject or setting etc.

M7, Acros 100.

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M240.

M11.

Really should use the lens more than I do!

[lct]

5 hours ago, lldd said:

All, thanks for the recommended alternate lens options, along with all of the other thoughts and suggestions.  Including the video - he's local to where I am.

I'm going to see if the local Leica store will let me borrow their display copy for an hour so I can walk around and try it.  Otherwise, I'll see if I can rent it somewhere.  Based on comments here, it seems like this is a possible solution, and I'd really prefer to stay in the M environment instead of sampling other cameras.

Depends on the way you intend to use the lens. In RF mode, focusing will be hit and miss at f/3.4 for reasons suggested above, so better try the lens in person if you want to shoot at full aperture. But in LV mode, especially with a good EVF, focusing is not a problem at all if you know how to use manual lenses on mirrorless cameras. Couple of snaps on M11 and Visoflex 2 below (Telyt 135/3.4, f/3.4, handheld, details in exif data).

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[charlesphoto99]

As others have said, it depends what you want to do with it. I’ve been using mine for a couple of long term projects of skyscapes and crows. For people photography a 90 is probably more useful. 

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[pgk]

On 7/3/2023 at 5:39 PM, lldd said:

For those who have Leica 135, how much do you use it, how is it for accurate focusing?  I really don't want to buy it and end up not using it.  But if it's pretty straightforward, then perhaps it's the best option.

I have the 135/4 in E46 (the last version before the 3.4 apo). My observations are that I only occasionally use this lens, but it deivers excellent images and accordingly I would not 'upgrade' it because I do not think that the marginal gains of the apo are worth it. However, having had several 135/4 lenses I would say that all have had focus issues except the E46 version and I remember reading something about the cam being problematic until the E46 version, which was in a completely different housing more like the f/3.4. That said it is not easy to nail focus with as the RF is, as has been explained by others, at the limit of its accuracy. If I am totally objective I would advise against a 135 on an M rangefinder unless you have a really good reason for wanting one. Whether I will keep mine I am not sure. When I use it it does produce excellent images but I really don't use it all that often and if I look at the prices of the 3.4 I do wonder if a different camera and 135 would make better sense and be cheaper too?