Darktable

[dpitt]

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On 6/25/2023 at 5:09 PM, zeitz said:

... Perhaps others forum members can verify that the old LR versions run on Ventura. 

Older versions of LR (v6 and earlier) can not be installed on anything higher than Mac OS 10.14. Even if you are using an Intel Mac. I think you can only install LR on 10.12 or lower, but it keeps running after you update to 10.14. Forget running on Mac OS 11 or Mac OS 12 or later, even on an Intel Mac. It will not run smoothly, even when you hack it to get it running (like I did).

I have installed Rawtherapee and Darktable on an Intel Mac OS 12.6 system. Not sure about future compatibility with ARM infrastructure.
A few months ago I got a discount offer for Capture One Pro v23 perpetual license and jumped on it. Not that Darktable and Rawtherapee are bad. They each have their strengths, but I like the relative ease of use of Capture One Pro and the results I get with minor effort compared to Darktable.

If you want more DAM power than Capture One (or Darktable) offers, have a look at the freeware package Digikam. I do not use any of the Digikam editing tools, but very much like the photo management, keywording and more it offers. I never worked with Photo Mechanic, but from what I know Digikam is like a mini-mechanic.

 

 

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[zeitz]

32 minutes ago, dpitt said:

Forget running on Mac OS 11 or Mac OS 12 or later, even on an Intel Mac.

Thanks for comments about later macOS' and 32 bit LR.

Edited June 27, 2023 by zeitz
Misread dpitt posting.

[dpitt]

20 minutes ago, zeitz said:

Thanks for comments about later macOS' and 32 bit LR.

Actually LR 6.0 itself is 64bit, but the installer is 32 bit, so Mac OS refuses to run the installer from 10.13 on, if I remember correctly. So upgrading an installed LR version works fine until 10.14, and I think on higher Mac OS versions it is running, but not completely. I have managed with great effort to get my LR running on 12.6 (Intel Mac) , but it crashes and runs slow, so it is just good enough to look up some old work and export it.

Edited June 27, 2023 by dpitt

[Bobitybob]

Just for clarity, LR5 has a 64bit installer and will install on current Intel Macs (and possibly Silicon Macs under Rosette). It's a bit flaky but for occasional use it's fine,  see below.

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[kinross]

I have spoken to Adobe help today and they back up what you say about installer being 32 bit. They can help me to get LR 6 installed but say it will be unreliable. This seems to fit with your experience. As I wish to use the program full time I will leave trying to get it on computer. Will think about my next move. Could swallow my pride and go for LRClassic. At least I know the program so do not to need to start learning again. Will sleep on it. I still have my IMac Pro 5.5 running High Sierra. Could install on that but it means changing monitor over every time I want to use it. I only have one monitor, Eizo and as macPro lives under my desk not easy to swap over. Will wait to see what tomorrow brings.

Thanks.   Mike.

 

 

 

 

 

 

thanks  Mike.

 

 

 

[pedaes]

40 minutes ago, kinross said:

Could swallow my pride and go for LRClassic

LrC is night and day above all previous versions. Just look at some videos of latest features like AI masks. I don't understand resistance to a monthly subscription.

[dpitt]

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8 hours ago, pedaes said:

... I don't understand resistance to a monthly subscription.

There are many reasons why some people resist, depending on individual preference and usage. Let me try to list some I can understand:

1. I do not like to rent or lease anything, I never did (privately) rent or lease even my home or my car, and bought all appliances and such. It saved me a lot of money doing so. Renting means not owning anything. Yes, it makes costs predictable, but in my experience you end up paying more, unless you are very unlucky with breakdowns or other unexpected costs. Insurance can help limit those risks. After 'writing off' my purchase, I like to have some residual value at my disposal.
2. My hobbies are subject to very large fluctuations in intensity of use. My job and family demand more of my time sometimes of the year, resulting in gear just sitting there for extended periods of time. It would be impractical to try and optimize leases for gear and software during inactive periods. With my Leica gear, I am very lucky it mostly keeps its value over the years. Even worse, my health caused a 2 year period of inactivity for my photography. After that, all I needed to do was reach out and pick it up from time to time, gradually getting up to speed again.
3. Renting software means jumping on their train and riding with every software upgrade. This is not always a good thing. Because I do not have/want to spend the money for new gear, I always buy used. Subscription models are geared towards people keeping up with the last and best version. It forces you to upgrade to their latest version to fully enjoy the benefits of your monthly fee, and that in turn forces you to keep the OS up to date, which in turn forces you to upgrade your hardware faster than you might want to. What if I like to keep my 10 year computer and am happy with the performance? It is long paid for and only consumes a little bit of extra power to run compared to newer models. The same goes for all the software that is on it and that does everything I want to do exactly how I am used to do it. (I am getting older too)
4. Using old camera's means I am still working with relatively small files. 24MP is plenty for me now, and is easy to process on old machines. No need to upgrade software too. On the contrary, some software updates might even drop support for a 20 year old camera like my Leica R8+DMR or M8/M9 that I am still using.
5. I had an opportunity to buy a license for Capture One Pro v23 for 200 Eur at the beginning of this year. That is very good value for money IMO. It buys me the same as a one year lease of the software (free updates for a year) and after that, I can keep using it for as long as I want. It will take probably 10 years before I buy Leica hardware that is not supported by v23. The minimum LR subscription would set me back 120 Eur each year, 200 - 120(my free year of updates) = 80 Euro. This would buy me 7 months of subscription to LR. So mid 2024, I am on break even compared to a LR or C1P subscription. After that, it is only profit, hopefully for an other 3 years or more. Saving me 120 EUR a year, and giving me peace of mind, because I will not be forced to upgrade anything against my will, not my C1P, not my OS, not my hardware... The difference will probably buy me a very nice vintage Leica R or even M lens, which will outlast any software I use now.

These are only the reasons I can see, and I suppose there will be many other valid reasons for other people.
I understand YMMV, but I think every software vendor should at least offer the option to purchase rather than lease their products.

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by dpitt

[hansvons]

4 hours ago, dpitt said:

•  
• I had an opportunity to buy a license for Capture One Pro v23 for 200 Eur at the beginning of this year.

I can totally see the advantage of buying a good software and stick to that in the long run—if you are not taking part in the faster, better, shinier race. I don't do that with hardware, sticking to manual lenses for decades and to digital camera bodies at least 5 years. 

But in these accelerated times, think of machine learning, software develops accordingly accelerated. That can have a substantial impact on working hours and results. Thus, leveraging these developments can be highly advantageous, and that means in most cases subscription.  If working hours don't bother you, buy and don't subscribe.

BTW, C1 23 is a mature and highly capable piece of software, in certain areas second to none. It's my workhorse, too, but subscribed.

On the other hand, Adobe’s photography subscription offer is a no-brainer on accessibility, features and budget. Especially for everyone a starting to get into serious photography. 

Lastly, sticking to a particular software has many advantages, muscle memory being the obvious one. Jumping ship always comes with costs. That alone could be a valid reason to bite the bullet and start subscribing to your favourite app.

---

On a side note, the question of owning vs subscribing/renting is a philosophical question the younger generation already answered, and that is subscribing. I can understand that, as subscriptions offer a perceived freedom from final decisions (you just unsubscribe).

Staying in the flow, not clinging to stuff, and letting things go isn't a Gen-X or Boomer virtue. However, there a valid reasons for ownership, think of building resources and a safety net. But that rarely applies to apps.

Edited June 28, 2023 by hansvons

[dpitt]

48 minutes ago, hansvons said:

...  If working hours don't bother you, buy and don't subscribe.

BTW, C1 23 is a mature and highly capable piece of software, in certain areas second to none. It's my workhorse, too, but subscribed.

... That alone could be a valid reason to bite the bullet and start subscribing to your favourite app.

---

On a side note, the question of owning vs subscribing/renting is a philosophical question the younger generation already answered, and that is subscribing. I can understand that, as subscriptions offer a perceived freedom from final decisions (you just unsubscribe).

...think of building resources and a safety net. But that rarely applies to apps.

Working hours on photo's don't bother me much, partly because I do not want to change much to a shot out of camera. I use C1P mainly for editing my DNG, bringing up shadows and correcting WB where needed. Sharpening and noise reduction is used sometimes, but not often because I often work at base ISO. I still remember the film time when ISO 400 was considered fast and 1600 was pushing it literally...

The work above takes me a few minutes per shot and C1 already does a good job with the auto function.
Then most of the time goes to choosing the right shot and cropping the right crop. Even if AI can do that for me (which I doubt) it would take away part of the joy of photographing for me.

...favorite app,

yes of course, but LR was never my favorite, Aperture was, until it was killed by Apple, and there you added an other reason for buying. At least I can keep Aperture running as it was on my oldest Mac with OS 10.6 without any cost, and it still runs on my OS 10.14 Mac. But who knows what will happen to subscription when the vendor decides to drop the software or goes bankrupt....I know, I know... Adobe will never go out of business...Tell that to the banks who failed just recently (and in 2008)

You mentioned that jumping ship always comes at a cost, and I found out the hard way. Last 20 years:
Picasa => iPhoto
iPhoto  => Aperture
Aperture => LR
LR => Capture One Pro (with a few months of using Darktable in between, until the promo came around for C1P)

I decided that I will see any PP software just as a darkroom from now on. I keep all original RAW files in an archive file structure. When the work in C1P (developing DNGs) is done, I will get out of it and never return or rely on it again. I export the full resolution result organized by Digikam in a logical file structure, all keywords and such embedded inside the files themselves so that I do not loose anything unless I lose the files themselves. The files are mostly JPEG and sometimes TIFF. This mostly how I dealt with the old Aperture and LR catalogs. I just exported the results and work outside of them to look up and organize my files now.

The free software Digikam is very unobtrusive as I set it up to store all info inside the individual files. I could take a bunch of JPEGS and rebuild everything from there with any future version of DAM system. No catalog or DB files needed, and intentionally so, because they make moving things around harder. DB and catalog files can and will get corrupted some day...

Edited June 28, 2023 by dpitt

[SiriusLux]

Here's a question for the Leica friends who use Capture One and got a promo code. When and how could I expect one?

 

Thanks in advance.