The SL2 is all the camera you need ...

[goodbokeh]

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21 minutes ago, Mr.Prime said:

I've not handled one so I was curious and looked up the weight of the camera. Holy cow, it's heavy. My limit is an M3 and that's coming up in search results at 580g. The SL2 comes up in the same search results at 920g (with battery). The best Leica digital camera I owned (no longer) was the CL at 365g which was an easy carry. The SL2 is simply a non-starter for me at that weight, it'd never go on travel with me. Sony can do better, the a7rv is 730g (incl. battery) but the M11 is even better, close to the M3.

Mr. Prime, I own the Sony A7RV and for its class it's a very light carry and operationally much improved over earlier Sonys. But body weight is not only metric when considering haptics or joy in using a camera. For the SL2 there is also the option of using M lenses. The prospect of using my Silver 35mm/1.4 FLE I (tested out A+ across the field by Fred Miranda) with this new Silver SL2 was a big deal for me. I also have a 75/2.4 Summarit, 90/2.5 Summarit, and 135/3.4 APO-Telyt-M that I plan to use with it.

Of course weight limits are an important consideration for enjoyment and maintaining energy. Heck, I'll be 69 in October so I understand that. I find using using a shoulder bag (Billingham) with the camera helps with carrying, resting it on top, protecting, and concealing the camera. 

[Sohail]

58 minutes ago, Mr.Prime said:

I've not handled one so I was curious and looked up the weight of the camera. Holy cow, it's heavy. My limit is an M3 and that's coming up in search results at 580g. The SL2 comes up in the same search results at 920g (with battery). The best Leica digital camera I owned (no longer) was the CL at 365g which was an easy carry. The SL2 is simply a non-starter for me at that weight, it'd never go on travel with me. Sony can do better, the a7rv is 730g (incl. battery) but the M11 is even better, close to the M3.

I used to think that too when the SL1 came out but it's really well-balanced except when using the gigantic but amazing 50mm lux.

[pegelli]

I don't agree with the "you" in the title of this thread. If you replace it by "I" you're 100% correct, but there's too many different wants/needs/brands/preferences/likes/constraints/.......  that the "ideal" or "all you need camera" for everybody can't exist, almost by definition.

Edited June 26, 2023 by pegelli
spelling

[goodbokeh]

7 hours ago, Sohail said:

Like you, I succumbed to the silver SL2. I had no intention of getting it. The pictures of it online weren't doing it for me. But when you see it up close, it's a thing of beauty. 

 

Cool Sohail! Well, my status at B&H hasn't changed since I ordered it on Day 1: "Backordered - Estimated Delivery Pending". I accept that Leica Boutique and Store customers will have priority service. The B&H PayBoo credit card which pays my local 9.5% sales tax is just to hard (for me) to pass up. My next trip isn't until September to Victoria B.C., so hopefully it will arrive by then.

[Ko.Fe.]

1 hour ago, Mr.Prime said:

I've not handled one so I was curious and looked up the weight of the camera. Holy cow, it's heavy. My limit is an M3 and that's coming up in search results at 580g. The SL2 comes up in the same search results at 920g (with battery). The best Leica digital camera I owned (no longer) was the CL at 365g which was an easy carry. The SL2 is simply a non-starter for me at that weight, it'd never go on travel with me. Sony can do better, the a7rv is 730g (incl. battery) but the M11 is even better, close to the M3.

IMO. Sony colors sucks, just as Nikon's. S5 II is something I would consider as SL2-S alternative. (744g).  But I'm not heavy on pixels. 

[goodbokeh]

3 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

"I think having the M11's sensor in the SL3 alone will be enough for me to be interested in upgrading from SL2 to SL3."

Based upon Q3 sensor information I've seen recently, I might have to back track or adjust my thoughts on this statement. TBD and I am sure the SL3 sensor will be another very good sensor/camera system but if perceived history repeats itself, there is a potential the SL3 will come with the same sensor as the Q3 also with PDAF ( speculation of course). 

While the Q3 sensor and the M11 sensor might share the same foundation or not, the Q3 measurements while still very good and capable, don't seem to be at the nit-pick level of the M11 output. Not that many will care about this one way or the other. And who knows maybe adding PDAF tech to the M11 sensor does result in part in some of these sensor level differences between M11 and Q3, I don't know but am interested to learn more. 

Since the Reid Reviews revelation of the Q3 cooking the Raw files in-camera for noise reduction, I wonder if that practice will be carried over to the SL3? I understand other camera companies (Canon) do that now. That's just one of the reasons I don't considered Photons to Photos graphs a solid reference. That's also based on my own experience with past cameras and the recent real life performance of my Q2 up against my Sony A1 in the Caves of Arta showing it performed similarly. But I'm not a high ISO fan, I lid the ISO on all my cameras to 1600, 3200 in extreme circumstances like in Arta.

Edited June 26, 2023 by goodbokeh
Typo

[Sohail]

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1 hour ago, pegelli said:

I don't agree with the "you" in the title of this thread. If you replace it by "I" you're 100% correct, but there's too many different wants/needs/brands/preferences/likes/constraints/.......  that the "ideal" or "all you need camera" for everybody can't exist, almost by definition.

If you want to get philosophical, it's the impersonal "you" not the second person singular. And strictly speaking, only "I" can know if I'm 100% correct -- not you.

Of course, it's all subjective, that's why it's a forum for discussion but I do provide some warrants for that claim, which you're a liberty to disagree with. 

[Sohail]

48 minutes ago, goodbokeh said:

Since the Reid Reviews revelation of the Q3 cooking the Raw files in-camera for noise reduction, I wonder if that practice will be carried over to the SL3? 

Yes, that worries me too. What's more, Lloyd Chamber notes that the 1.7 Summilux lens doesn't have the resolving power to match the 60 MP sensor. It barely did at 47MP.  He writes that "the Leica Q3 with a 60MP sensor, and the lens is ... nothing short of pathetic given the demands of the sensor. That is, extreme barrel distortion with distortion correction (required) guarantees poor sharpness over at least half the frame."

Perhaps it's time to ditch the Q and get the 28mm APO SL + SL2?

[pegelli]

On 6/20/2023 at 4:27 PM, Sohail said:

The SL2 is all the camera I need and more.

20 minutes ago, Sohail said:

If you want to get philosophical, it's the impersonal "you" not the second person singular. And strictly speaking, only "I" can know if I'm 100% correct -- not you.

Of course, it's all subjective, that's why it's a forum for discussion but I do provide some warrants for that claim, which you're a liberty to disagree with. 

  Of course I know that you're 100% correct, I'm using your own words from your first post

Yes it's all subjective but I still don't like using the word "you" even when used in the impersonal manner. I like the way you described in your opening post much better.

 

[LBJ2]

3 hours ago, Sohail said:

I agree. If the SL3 follows the Q3 trajectory, it doesn't bode well. I think the Q3 is a design failure. If they go with the tiltable screen too, I think the SL2 will remain a classic. I'm happy to be proved wrong. Interesting to see how this pans out.

I'm looking forward to the tilt screen on the SL3. Long time coming IMO, but so was PDAF. But we shall see. If I have a tilt screen I use, it If not...well we all figure it out regardless to include in my case using my iPhone as an external camera screen via the Fotos app when needed ( can be very functional BTW). 

I fully expect the Q3 to give a strong indication of what the SL3 will be, but of course that's not up to me and I'm already starting to think about my preconceived SL3 with PDAF expectations...FWIW, I also fully expect the Q3 will be yet another Q, Giant sales success for Leica. People do seem to love their Q's.  

[LBJ2]

2 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

IMO. Sony colors sucks, just as Nikon's. S5 II is something I would consider as SL2-S alternative. (744g).  But I'm not heavy on pixels. 

IMO, I've yet to find two Sony FF E-mount cameras with the exact same color profiles. Like most other camera brands to include Canon BTW, seems colors all get a tweaked from model to model either purposely based upon customer feedback or due to the side effects of newly integrated technology like a BSI sensor or both I don't know. Never mind the effect on colors from various lenses used. 

[goodbokeh]

1 hour ago, Sohail said:

Yes, that worries me too. What's more, Lloyd Chamber notes that the 1.7 Summilux lens doesn't have the resolving power to match the 60 MP sensor. It barely did at 47MP.  He writes that "the Leica Q3 with a 60MP sensor, and the lens is ... nothing short of pathetic given the demands of the sensor. That is, extreme barrel distortion with distortion correction (required) guarantees poor sharpness over at least half the frame."

Perhaps it's time to ditch the Q and get the 28mm APO SL + SL2?

For me the Q class is a very different type of camera that has a street photo niche. Stop the 28/1.7 down to 5.6 and it will produce excellent landscapes but that is rarely what I use it for. Chambers is too fringy and bombastic in his reviews for my paywall $. I'm a Reid Reviews guy. He has a long history with Leica cameras and his testing methodologies are solid as the Rock of Gibraltar.

[Guest]

On 6/22/2023 at 2:29 PM, jaapv said:

It has been tested extensively by a number of members here. Believe me. Mechanical shutter will produce soft images on that lens at any shutter speed   Shutter shock is on a higher frequency which does not register with OIS 

No there is no firmware incompatibility. It is a known problem for users. I’ll be interested in your results, although testing on a tripod does not mirror real life use. 

Hm. I am 95% of the time using the Sigma 150-600 on a monopod or tripod. The lens is too heavy otherwise. YMMV.

[LBJ2]

7 minutes ago, goodbokeh said:

For me the Q class is a very different type of camera that has a street photo niche. Stop the 28/1.7 down to 5.6 and it will produce excellent landscapes but that is rarely what I use it for. Chambers is too fringy and bombastic in his reviews for my paywall $. I'm a Reid Reviews guy. He has a long history with Leica cameras and his testing methodologies are solid as the Rock of Gibraltar.

"too fringy and bombastic" 🤣 I've always thought if there is a hair in the soup, I know which reviewer will find it first.  

[LBJ2]

9 minutes ago, mzbe said:

Hm. I am 95% of the time using the Sigma 150-600 on a monopod or tripod. The lens is too heavy otherwise. YMMV.

Did I read there is a recent firmware update for the Sigma 150-600. Or is this old news? Anyway, have you shot SL2 or -S with the latest Sigma 150-600 firmware? 

https://www.sigma-imaging.no/blog/item/firmware-update-sigma-150-600mm-f5-6.3-dg-dn-os-sports-in-l-mount/

"Benefits of the update: SIGMA 150-600mm F5-6.3 DG DN OS | Sports for L-Mount Ver.1.1
• The newly developed “OS2” image stabilization algorithm has been updated to improve the image stabilization effect from approximately 4 stops to approximately 6.5 stops at the wide end and 5.5 stops at the telephoto end.
• Supports Leica Extender L 1.4x by Leica Camera AG"

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by LBJ2

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Did I read there is a recent firmware update for the Sigma 150-600. Or is this old news? Anyway, have you shot SL2 or -S with the latest Sigma 150-600 firmware? 

THANK YOU! I had completely missed availability of the new firmware (here). Update requires the Sigma USB dock, which I have. I will try in the next couple of days.

The announcement reads very promising, up to 2 stops better IS performance!

Quote

• The newly developed “OS2” image stabilization algorithm has been updated to improve the image stabilization effect from approximately 4 stops to approximately 6.5 stops at the wide end and 5.5 stops at the telephoto end.
• Supports Leica Extender L 1.4x by Leica Camera AG

 

[jaapv]

23 minutes ago, mzbe said:

Hm. I am 95% of the time using the Sigma 150-600 on a monopod or tripod. The lens is too heavy otherwise. YMMV.

It does indeed vary - mine has never been on a monopod or tripod and rarely will be - I find it balances nicely handheld and I am used to handling heavy rigs. Try using a tripod in a dynamic wildlife situation or slapping your fellow passengers on the shins with a monopod in a gameviewing vehicle. A beanbag is OK but beyond that - no.

In fact, the lens is quite light and compact in its class.

Don't think that a tripod can eliminate shutter slap - it must be very heavy and solid to do so, preferably wood.

[SrMi]

8 hours ago, jaapv said:

It does indeed vary - mine has never been on a monopod or tripod and rarely will be - I find it balances nicely handheld and I am used to handling heavy rigs. Try using a tripod in a dynamic wildlife situation or slapping your fellow passengers on the shins with a monopod in a gameviewing vehicle. A beanbag is OK but beyond that - no.

In fact, the lens is quite light and compact in its class.

Don't think that a tripod can eliminate shutter slap - it must be very heavy and solid to do so, preferably wood.

From my safari experience.

On a photography safari, you are supposed to have a row for yourself.

Some safari vehicles have gimbal mounts installed per seat. One can attach a monopod to the frame, but it never worked for me except in the row with the driver.  In most cases, I had a beanbag over the railing on which the long lens was resting. 

Typically, you wait a long time on a photo safari, and the lens and camera must be ready, pointing in the direction of the subject.

[Stuart Richardson]

On 6/26/2023 at 7:19 PM, goodbokeh said:

For me the Q class is a very different type of camera that has a street photo niche. Stop the 28/1.7 down to 5.6 and it will produce excellent landscapes but that is rarely what I use it for. Chambers is too fringy and bombastic in his reviews for my paywall $. I'm a Reid Reviews guy. He has a long history with Leica cameras and his testing methodologies are solid as the Rock of Gibraltar.

The bloom came a bit off the rose for me when I realized that my 500 dollar 24mm Sigma lens was as good as the one in the Q2, and that it was lighter to bring along the SL2 and 24mm lens than it was to use the Q2 as a wide for my L mount. I found the camera too wide to be useful as a general purpose travel camera, particularly given the fact that it is more of a 25 or 26mm angle of view lens to my eyes than a 28mm. I wish that instead of using the same lens on the Q3, they had focused on upgrading the lens. Or even better, added a very sharp 40mm lens instead, even with the same Q2 sensor. In looking at Reid's comparison series, I found that I preferred the Q2 to the Q3. Noise at high ISO is not that important to me, and the Q2 looked better in the edges and corners to me, even when the Q3 was sized down to 47mp. This was not quite the conclusion he reached, however. Before the Q3 was released I was highly skeptical that the lens could fully utilize the 60mp, and to my eyes at least, it looks like I was right.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

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[pgh]

@Stuart Richardson A 40mm Q2 would be interesting to me, agreed. The whole reason I re-entered the M system with the M10 was because it was the smallest full frame 50mm solution available. The Sony RX1RII was great but too wide and the viewfinder a little frustrating. If it was a 40-50 I probably would have stuck with it, though.

Anyways, I do agree with the OP in that the SL2 is probably the best jack of all trades in this forum. To be honest, it's my least used camera - but if I could only own one, it's probably the one I would keep. I do enjoy it, just not as much as the M series, but it's more versatile no doubt and really, with M lens mounted on it, hardly bigger or heavier than an M.