I heard the M-A is hand made or assembled by hand.

[kivis]

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Just exactly what does that mean? And how is that different from other current Leica M's?🤷‍♂️Or is it just marketing poop?

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Huss]

Did you hear ‘hand’ or ‘hands’?  
 

If ‘hand’ then that would explain Leica’s current quality issues.

[Ko.Fe.]

43 minutes ago, Huss said:

Did you hear ‘hand’ or ‘hands’?  
 

If ‘hand’ then that would explain Leica’s current quality issues.

It is international forum.

In my original culture ... quality determined from where hands were growing. 

[kivis]

What part of a Leica is built by hand?

[madNbad]

2 hours ago, kivis said:

What part of a Leica is built by hand?

All of it. An assembler reaches into a bin with parts, fits them into a chassis on the line and passes on to the next person with a bin of parts. At the end, someone wipes it with rag and then the senior assembler signs the little card telling you it’s “good to go!”

[kivis]

So Hand assembled? Not hand made.

Edited May 17, 2023 by kivis

[kivis]

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So the opposite of this is automated assembly using robotic technology? 

[Huss]

17 minutes ago, kivis said:

So the opposite of this is automated assembly using robotic technology? 

It’s those nasty digital cameras that are made by robots.  M11, Sl2, Q2…

[kivis]

Which is better? I know if I have to ask, I'm an idiot.

[CSG123]

Hand "fitted" might be the best descriptor.  I have no idea what the quality issues one poster mentioned are (with the analog M's; I've read about the digital M issues going back to the 8.  But my own view is that if one is going to shoot with an analog Leica M, the M4 was their last great camera.  Mine is from the first batch and just had a repair and CLA after the shutter curtain separated 56 years after it was made.  As I bought my M4 in 2010, prices were better in those days.  I paid $600 for the camera and have used it for 12 1/2 years.  With shipping, I paid $670 to DAG for the CLA and shutter curtain repair (as well as some other tweaks he did and a ding on the upper plate he knocked out.  So, would I rather have this old M4 or a new analog M?  The M4 without question.  I would guess the current prices for the M4 might be closer to $2k for a good example but a clean one with problems can still be brought back to proper working order for a few hundred to upwards of $700-800 if you send it to DAG vs. YYe.  I was stunned how my M4 performed after it came back compared to what I'd been used to.  Tight, snappy, extremely well adjusted rangefinder (infinity is spot on at a mile or more), the shutter is so much better than what I'd been used to - clean sounding, speeds seem perfectly adjusted.

Bottom line, IMO, get an older analog M and get it a CLA if needed.  Why spend a few thousand more for an M that's not made as well as their older cameras?

 

[kivis]

I am totally happy with M-A and M3. The M3 had a CLA about 18 years ago, prompted by a loose curtain. The M-A has been flawless in every way since purchase 2 1/2 years ago when bought new. Just wondering what all this "hand" terminology really means.

[logan2z]

49 minutes ago, kivis said:

Just wondering what all this "hand" terminology really means.

Any chance you might be referring to this article?  If I search for the word 'hand' in there, I find this:

"Each camera is predominantly handcrafted..."

"Every Leica camera goes through at least 17 individual steps before being hand-assembled"

"...superb hand-affixed leather"

"...the cameras are perfectly hand-built"

"professionals hand-lacquer the coatings on the edges of each and every lens"

"...specialists hand-check the smoothness of the manual focus of each lens"

"...the company’s commitment to quality, hand artisanship..."

A lot of hand waving going on there  

I don't doubt that the cameras are predominantly hand-assembled, but I don't think I'd refer to them as 'handmade' which, to me, would imply that there are no machines involved in their manufacture.

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, CSGreene said:

Why spend a few thousand more for an M that's not made as well as their older cameras?

Who says they're not as well made?  I have an M-A, M4 and M2 and the M-A seems every bit as well made as the M4 and M2.  

[250swb]

2 hours ago, kivis said:

I am totally happy with M-A and M3. The M3 had a CLA about 18 years ago, prompted by a loose curtain. The M-A has been flawless in every way since purchase 2 1/2 years ago when bought new. Just wondering what all this "hand" terminology really means.

Think of it like this, you spend a day putting a shelf up, you stand back to admire your work but the wife thinks its not level, but you argue it's 'good enough'. Hand crafted, hand made, and hand assembled are that unstable ground between a human getting it right or getting it wrong, or somewhere in-between. The theory is that the quality control department should send anything wrong back for rectification, and why Leica's don't leave the factory in the same order they started on the assembly line. In the days when we could de-code the Unique Image hex number on a new digital camera it would show some had maybe 50 shutter actuations from testing on leaving the factory and some 200 or more. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by 250swb

[LocalHero1953]

If you put a shelf up yourself using plywood or laminate coated chipboard, is that hand-made or hand-assembled or what? Worrying about such distinctions is a waste of time IMO, but since when has that halted a good forum thread?

Is a Sony A7 hand-assembled? Do any humans touch them from the moment bulk plastic, metal and glass enter the factory at one end till a box appears at the other? We need to know.

Edited May 17, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[wattsy]

 

[Ouroboros]

Leica’s Portuguese hands are big, clumsy shovel-like things more suited to picking olives than sticking bits and pieces of cameras together.  
 

Only the QC inspection card passes through the hands of a robot and he lives in Germany.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Ouroboros

[CSG123]

2 hours ago, logan2z said:

Who says they're not as well made?  I have an M-A, M4 and M2 and the M-A seems every bit as well made as the M4 and M2.  

Ah, so you've seen the insides of each of these cameras?  Glad you're happy with the M-A.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[andybarton]

All Ms are handmade, from components made on machines, M11 included. They always have been. No one in their right mind would think that the individual components are handmade, like some 18C clock. How many handmade sensors can you name?

[logan2z]

3 minutes ago, CSGreene said:

Ah, so you've seen the insides of each of these cameras?  Glad you're happy with the M-A.

No, I haven't completely disassembled each of these cameras.  Have you?  If so, please post some photos indicating why the M-A is of inferior quality. 

I don't take my cameras apart, I use them as photographic tools.  From that perspective, my M-A has been rock solid since I purchased it in 2017 and feels every bit as good as my M2 and M4.