42nd Leitz Photographica Auction

[zeitz]

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The catalog for June's auction is now online.  I just did a quick look.  As usual I have some problems with the descriptions of some lots.

- Lot 92, 15cm f2.5 Hektor.  Is this a known lens?  The machining and engraving look fake to me.

- Lot 266, Astro Berlin Identoskop with 135mm lens.  The sn for the Identoskop is 23113.  The description says "Year 1950s".  But this is one of the first Identoskops made and dates to about 1935.  This lot also was offered in the 2008 Westlicht Auction.

- Lots 323 & 324, Zeiss 18cm and 30cmm lenses in Exakta mounts.  These are pre-war Zeiss lenses, but I think the mounts, in black paint, are post war.  So the mounts would be Flektoskop to Exakta adapters, post war but before 1950.

I also see Peter Coeln is having his own Ostlicht auction earlier in June.

[willeica]

1 hour ago, zeitz said:

The catalog for June's auction is now online.  I just did a quick look.  As usual I have some problems with the descriptions of some lots.

- Lot 92, 15cm f2.5 Hektor.  Is this a known lens?  The machining and engraving look fake to me.

- Lot 266, Astro Berlin Identoskop with 135mm lens.  The sn for the Identoskop is 23113.  The description says "Year 1950s".  But this is one of the first Identoskops made and dates to about 1935.  This lot also was offered in the 2008 Westlicht Auction.

- Lots 323 & 324, Zeiss 18cm and 30cmm lenses in Exakta mounts.  These are pre-war Zeiss lenses, but I think the mounts, in black paint, are post war.  So the mounts would be Flektoskop to Exakta adapters, post war but before 1950.

I also see Peter Coeln is having his own Ostlicht auction earlier in June.

I cannot see any aperture scale on the listed lens. There is a 150mm f2.5 Hektor for use on Prado projectors. It screws into a holder just like other Prado lenses, but this is not what we are talking about here 

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 Some people use these for close ups or with large format cameras

https://thodorismarkou.com/blog/tag/leitz+hektor+150mm%2Ff2-5

What is in the Leitz Auction catalogue listing looks quite different. Neither Lager nor Laney listed such a lens for Visoflex use. I can ask Jim Lager if he has ever heard of such a thing. If he does not know, I will ask the auction guys. You would imagine that if this is a rare one off item it would be listed as such.

William 

[zeitz]

22 minutes ago, willeica said:

What is in the Leitz Auction catalogue listing looks quite different.

William, thanks for the photo of the projector lens.  The very front of the lenses look the same - the glass, the glass retainer ring, and the two alternating thin knurled and black bands.  The the focusing mount machining / finishing and the engraving look different.  It's hard to tell in the photos, but even the finish of the two front rings and rear black ring look different.

[romanus53]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb zeitz:

The catalog for June's auction is now online.  I just did a quick look.  As usual I have some problems with the descriptions of some lots.

- Lot 92, 15cm f2.5 Hektor.  Is this a known lens?  The machining and engraving look fake to me.

- Lot 266, Astro Berlin Identoskop with 135mm lens.  The sn for the Identoskop is 23113.  The description says "Year 1950s".  But this is one of the first Identoskops made and dates to about 1935.  This lot also was offered in the 2008 Westlicht Auction.

- Lots 323 & 324, Zeiss 18cm and 30cmm lenses in Exakta mounts.  These are pre-war Zeiss lenses, but I think the mounts, in black paint, are post war.  So the mounts would be Flektoskop to Exakta adapters, post war but before 1950.

I also see Peter Coeln is having his own Ostlicht auction earlier in June.

considering lot 266, "someone" is trying to sell such an item for years https://www.ebay.de/itm/266249571767?hash=item3dfdb60db7:g:sjsAAOSwPuRkWDBC&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAABIHJCmKeFSb8VnXU0QT%2BO9Vds%2B7rppxvrDaHKJ6l%2FUeLKhWbjR8%2Fr%2FErddgPBrAqvV%2BHqrgyWOwjcuvWY%2Bw9Z9U2%2Fd2qj3V954w6S8SeU97brt5dgqEIRYRTPTCGQP68eALdKLgMIJ1VcehBdthiFrki07gXOL6dGgAeoHTxPRKyrr1OiiEx5sz%2Fu9Vha65rBY4Ik%2FOqcG1yg61HuFE3YT9y6AC200nIOOv3tGZ0lzL23sFlG6rSR6YGpsE4e7%2BCU3LREgfXhIYCPkKgOAtxFZb9aIB9%2F31sDATX6REgKtBG9f7jC5izGDBy9wMW4sFvQo0E%2BMy2BZzvqAD3IghHPE8FbHuTKxKEieOCG0Fya0G%2Fuh2b3lwdkHp20yh4CBXudGA%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR4rmsOiBYg without any success, similar old and interesting but condition is bad and price way to high. the lens in lot 266 looks coated and is named "Ostar" so perhaps post-war item, the mirror-box is made in the 1930ies.

[zeitz]

6 hours ago, romanus53 said:

lot 266 looks coated and is named "Ostar" so perhaps post-war item

The lens is coated, but the coating would have to have been applied after WWII.  The lens serial number and the lens style are from the 1934 or 1935.  The styles evolved quickly, likely because each lens was handmade.  I have recorded two lenses with the Ostar trademark (16707 and 17383); they are both in this serial number range.  The oldest Identoskop serial number I have found is 16802, so that dates it to 1934 when the reflex housing was introduced.  All the lenses were given serial numbers sequential to production; that is, there doesn't seem to be number ranges / lots assigned to lens designs.  And the Identoskops were in the same serial number sequence.  Serial numbers 39xxx were pre WWII; serial numbers resumed with 50xxx after the war.  The lowest serial number I have seen is 403; it is engraved "patent filed".  The US patent was filed in 1924 and granted in 1925.  So #403 was definitely made in 1924.

If you would like to have my list of serial numbers, send me a PM.

[willeica]

From Jim Lager. He seems to feel the 150 mm lens was developed from the projector lens and this is what happened with the 125mm lens, which Jim says was developed from a 120mm projector lens. 

 "I checked my old literature and indeed the

 15cm f2.5 Hektor is listed as the USERU. I have listings from

1952,1953,1954,1956, and 1958. Around 1960 the codewords

 were changed to catalog numbers. The 15cm f2.5 Hektor projection

 lens has been custom mounted to fit the Visoflex 1. The housing

 shown is the IFLEX with swing in focusing screens. The IFLEX was

 a micro division product. Was the mounting done by Leitz ? Officially ?

 Maybe. Remember the 125mm f2.5 Hektor Visoflex 1 lens began by

 experimenting with a 120mm Hektor projection lens. In any event the

mounting looks very professional. Undoubtedly the lens would be fine

 for portraits where limited depth of field was desired."

This seems to have been a one-off job or an experimental item. I'm surprised that the auction house did not mention the custom mounting and 'one-off' nature of this item, which may be unique. 

William 

[willeica]

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Another one that I showed to Jim Lager was this early Leitz Torpedo Viewfinder which sold at Breker Auction yesterday for €10,000 before premium was added. It came with a detachable vertical viewfinder, something I have never seen before.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/151529867_precursor-of-the-torpedo-viewfinder-1930-31

Jim said that he had never seen anything like this. He suggested that the finder and attachment might have been made on a special request. 

William 

[zeitz]

18 hours ago, willeica said:

I'm surprised that the auction house did not mention the custom mounting and 'one-off' nature of this item, which may be unique. 

I was also surprised by brevity of the description.  Does Leica AG own Leica Camera Classics (Official Leica Classic Online Store), which runs the auction?  Is Leica Camera Classic associated with Leica Classic Store Wetzlar?  Perhaps Leica AG is also unsure of the lens' provenance.

https://classic.leica-camera.com/at/en/lcc/

 

[willeica]

1 hour ago, zeitz said:

I was also surprised by brevity of the description.  Does Leica AG own Leica Camera Classics (Official Leica Classic Online Store), which runs the auction?  Is Leica Camera Classic associated with Leica Classic Store Wetzlar?  Perhaps Leica AG is also unsure of the lens' provenance.

https://classic.leica-camera.com/at/en/lcc/

 

Yes, Leica owns Leitz Auctions and the Leica Store in Classic Store in Wetzlar. The former will hold its June Auction in the Ernst Leitz Building which is part of the HQ complex and the Classic Store is in the HQ building itself. The Leitz Auction business holds its November auction in Vienna. The Ostlicht Auction, which is owned by Peter Coeln, who formerly owned Westlicht Auction which is now Leitz Auction, also operates from Vienna. On the other hand, Wetzlar Camera Auctions is owned by Lars Netopil in Wetzlar and Jo Geier in Vienna. You may note that there is a bit of a Wetzlar - Vienna Axis thing going on here. Be assured, though, that there is plenty of competition at the top end of the market which is where all of these operations sit. Breker Auction is in Koln, but it is involved in far wider range of auctions than just cameras and lenses. If you look at the various Breker catalogues you will see what I mean.

I hope the above is not too confusing. 

William 

[willeica]

My article on some of the Leitz Auction highlights which was prepared before the main catalogue appeared last week.

https://www.macfilos.com/2023/05/15/wetzlar-leitz-auction-a-selection-of-highlights-from-the-june-event/

William 

[Anbaric]

42 minutes ago, willeica said:

My article on some of the Leitz Auction highlights which was prepared before the main catalogue appeared last week.

https://www.macfilos.com/2023/05/15/wetzlar-leitz-auction-a-selection-of-highlights-from-the-june-event/

William 

That Walker Evans IIIc set is indeed very nice and the estimate is not too crazy by the rarefied standards of collectable Leicas. Just curious if the IIIf-style wind-on knob was fitted to late IIIc bodies out of the box, or if it's an upgrade.

[willeica]

10 hours ago, Anbaric said:

That Walker Evans IIIc set is indeed very nice and the estimate is not too crazy by the rarefied standards of collectable Leicas. Just curious if the IIIf-style wind-on knob was fitted to late IIIc bodies out of the box, or if it's an upgrade.

It could be either, as this is a late one from 1950. I have some IIIcs which were converted to IIIf BDs and they have that wind on knob. 
 

William 

[Pyrogallol]

I have this 111c converted to 111f black dial. Leitz gave me the dates of 31-5-1946 and 17-7-1959 for the conversion. The May 1946 date presumably is the date it left the factory? The serial number 400045 would indicate that it was the 45th camera made after production restarted late in 1945, from what I have read that post-war numbering started at 400000 in 1945 ?

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[willeica]

26 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

I have this 111c converted to 111f black dial. Leitz gave me the dates of 31-5-1946 and 17-7-1959 for the conversion. The May 1946 date presumably is the date it left the factory? The serial number 400045 would indicate that it was the 45th camera made after production restarted late in 1945, from what I have read that post-war numbering started at 400000 in 1945 ?

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There were some IIIas, IIIbs and IIIcs made in 1946 or 1947 with SNs commencing with 3, but you can safely say that this is the 45th (or 46th?) camera in the new postwar SN sequence beginning with a 4. Up to about 1950, SNs were all over the place and did not follow a strict sequence, which was one of the overhangs from WWII. This camera is also a very early 'non-stepper' IIIc.

William 

Edited May 16, 2023 by willeica

[wlaidlaw]

If the indicative prices are correct on the catalogue, I better up the insurance valuations for my 35 Leica body/50 Leica lens collection. Just for one example my 250FF Reporter with 1933 collapsible nickel Summar (which is currently being returned to perfect running order by Malcolm Taylor and hopefully near completion), is on my insurance schedule at present for £4000. Leitz Auctions values an early nickel Summar at around €2000 alone. 4 x KOOBF cassettes for the 250 (I have 6 of these cassettes and the correct winder plus ABCOO cut off knife in its morocco leather case) are expected to fetch €500. The more common 250 GG, where about twice as many were made compared to the earlier 250FF, is estimated at €6-7000. Sadly the only beneficiaries of this inflation are likely to be my children, as I have no intent of selling my collection and my insurance agent from more fees on the increased premiums. 

Wilson

[Pyrogallol]

A Summar for €2000 ? Cheap for a rigid perhaps but too much for a collapsible. Even though I have watched the price of ordinary Summars double in the last couple of years.

i am using my earliest black rim Summar at present.

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Edited May 17, 2023 by Pyrogallol

[wlaidlaw]

I am guessing that the estimated Summar value is because a) Nickel not chrome and b) like mine, 1933 first batch. I have said in the past, looking at Leitz Auction prices, that they were hopelessly optimistic but when the realised prices are published, generally they have been proved correct. As a retired insurance underwriter, I know the way that claims adjusters' minds work and if you over-value an item, you better be able to prove it, if you want to be paid that amount after a loss. Leitz Auctions would be regarded as an authoritative value source. 

Wilson

 

[darylgo]

Fascinating discussions, thank you.  Is there available the results from the auction(s) of June 10?

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, darylgo said:

Is there available the results from the auction(s) of June 10?

Hammer prices have been added to the online catalog.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[wlaidlaw]

The 250GG Reporter with MOOEV Aviation motor drive fetched €900,000! The 4 KOOBF cassettes for the reporter fetched €1020. 

Wilson