Flip it!

[WvE]

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It might be regarded as heresy but in the next M, I would like to see a screen that can be titled/swiveled horizontally (at least). I find the flippy screen of my Nikon to be quite handy. The M has a screen so why not make it more versatile by adding a tilting option? This may perhaps to some extent also obviate the need for those, in my opinion, fiddly Visoflexes. The only challenge will be keeping the dimensions of the current M’s.

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[dpitt]

On 5/5/2023 at 3:01 PM, WvE said:

 ...The only challenge will be keeping the dimensions of the current M’s.

Exactly!. Even adding a few mm for the M240 was too much for a lot of Leica M fans.

[dugby]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:01 PM, WvE said:

It might be regarded as heresy but in the next M, I would like to see a screen that can be titled/swiveled horizontally (at least). I find the flippy screen of my Nikon to be quite handy. The M has a screen so why not make it more versatile by adding a tilting option? This may perhaps to some extent also obviate the need for those, in my opinion, fiddly Visoflexes. The only challenge will be keeping the dimensions of the current M’s.

Have you tried using the Fotos app on your smartphone for LV access to the M-10/P/R/11 as an alternative to a flip-out display

[WvE]

4 hours ago, dugby said:

Have you tried using the Fotos app on your smartphone for LV access to the M-10/P/R/11 as an alternative to a flip-out display

Yes I did, works better and better but I don't see it as an alternative for a flippy screen.

[kinetic]

7 hours ago, WvE said:

Yes I did, works better and better but I don't see it as an alternative for a flippy screen.

I think it's a pretty good alternative. You can flip it in any angle you want? It is a bit of a pain to have another device, and honestly my app constantly disconnects from my camera, but assuming it worked well for others, it could be a great alternative.

[Kwesi]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:01 AM, WvE said:

It might be regarded as heresy but in the next M, I would like to see a screen that can be titled/swiveled horizontally (at least). I find the flippy screen of my Nikon to be quite handy. The M has a screen so why not make it more versatile by adding a tilting option? This may perhaps to some extent also obviate the need for those, in my opinion, fiddly Visoflexes. The only challenge will be keeping the dimensions of the current M’s.

So you want a "flippy" screen on the M, heh?

Well my friend you have managed to do the impossible - and that is to shut me up 😅

[hmzimelka]

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A flip screen would be a hard No Sale situation for me on an M, and probably for every other M user I know personally.

I would really hope the M stays an M moving forward. For those that want an M mount camera with EVF, IBIS and flip screens hopefully get what they want with a new Leica product rather than in the next M 😬

The M11 is not at the frontier of digital technology compared to what's available on the market, yet it feels like Leica can't get a mature product to market even one year post release. It seems Leica have bitten off more than it can chew with this product, so adding a whole lot more tech to the system doesn't feel confidence inspiring. 

Yeah, I'm all for new tech where it compliments the system. A global electronic shutter will be great to replace a mechanical shutter, but it needs to be as good or better than a mechanical shutter. The electronic shutter in the M11 is not very practical. Just like the half-arsed implementation of the "Tri-Res" feature in the M11.

 

[WvE]

3 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

A flip screen would be a hard No Sale situation for me on an M, and probably for every other M user I know personally.

I would really hope the M stays an M moving forward. For those that want an M mount camera with EVF, IBIS and flip screens hopefully get what they want with a new Leica product rather than in the next M 😬

The M11 is not at the frontier of digital technology compared to what's available on the market, yet it feels like Leica can't get a mature product to market even one year post release. It seems Leica have bitten off more than it can chew with this product, so adding a whole lot more tech to the system doesn't feel confidence inspiring. 

Yeah, I'm all for new tech where it compliments the system. A global electronic shutter will be great to replace a mechanical shutter, but it needs to be as good or better than a mechanical shutter. The electronic shutter in the M11 is not very practical. Just like the half-arsed implementation of the "Tri-Res" feature in the M11.

 

I get it, but I'm afraid there's no stopping, the M will evolve. It seems that the Q3 will have a tilt screen...

"Tilt it!" would have been a better title for this topic.

[Photoworks]

14 hours ago, hmzimelka said:

The electronic shutter in the M11 is not very practical.

why not, it gives you exposure to reading. Since the old sensor's reflective reading is at end of life, I am glad they found a great solution.

[hmzimelka]

6 hours ago, Photoworks said:

why not, it gives you exposure to reading. Since the old sensor's reflective reading is at end of life, I am glad they found a great solution.

The readout of the electric shutter is so slow that it causes a rolling shutter affect... straight lines can end up skew if one happens to move the camera during the exposure. Objects that move are distorted. The only thing practical about it is that it's silent and allows effective exposure for shutter speeds higher than 1/4000sec.

I don't think it's a great solution. The stapler sound and the multiple shutter curtain action to take one image is not something a lot of people are a fan of. I think a sensor like in the Z9 that can completely circumvent a mechanical shutter, is something that can be labeled a good solution. To have the shutter open for metering and live view, then to take an image the curtain closes, another opens followed quickly by the second curtain, both these move back to be reset and the front curtain opens again for live view and metering. Seems excessive for one picture. Just my opinion, but I think I'm not the only one.

I have the M11 and I'm getting on with it for over a year and 17K+ images, but it's often I just want my M10M back. The only thing that keeps that from happening is access to M cameras where I am and the fact that the M11 has amazing battery life. 

 

[adan]

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A couple of years ago I proposed an accessory (optional) waist-level LCD screen for the M, that connects to the existing EVF contacts in the hot shoe. Call it a Viso WL for waist level).

Keeps us purists happy - and provides another product for the gear-heads to buy - and makes Leica a little more profit.  

I always loved the pop-off prisms on the flagship Nikons and Canons of the 1960s-1980s, which allowed low/high-angle viewing for added drama with wide-angles.

Although I have gotten away with a vertical LV screen, if I'm feeling limber.

Image below - Canon 5D2 non-flip rear screen, plus Leitz 21mm f/4 Super-Angulon-R (Leica content).

Edited May 10, 2023 by adan

[Hausen17]

Doesn’t the visoflex negate the requirement for a flip screen?

[wdahab]

I'd like to add the caveat that this is only good if they don't do what they appear to be doing with the Q3. Early photos show that it has a tilt/flip LCD screen, but at the expense of the screen sticking significantly out the back of the camera, making the whole thing much less svelte. 

[adan]

19 hours ago, Hausen17 said:

Doesn’t the visoflex negate the requirement for a flip screen?

It has insignificant eye relief.

With the old SLRs (including the original film Visoflexes)with removable prisms/eye-pieces, you could view composition from a couple of feet/0.5m above the viewfinder (or below - for Hail-Mary* over-the-head angles).

Having a right-angle finder that still requires mashing one's face to the camera (and groveling on the ground or carrying a short step-ladder ) is not the idea here.

*Hail-Mary picture - hold the camera upside down over your head (and, for example, the heads of a crowd) while looking up into the (large) viewfinder area for composition.

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[Hausen17]

On 5/13/2023 at 6:38 AM, adan said:

It has insignificant eye relief.

With the old SLRs (including the original film Visoflexes)with removable prisms/eye-pieces, you could view composition from a couple of feet/0.5m above the viewfinder (or below - for Hail-Mary* over-the-head angles).

Having a right-angle finder that still requires mashing one's face to the camera (and groveling on the ground or carrying a short step-ladder ) is not the idea here.

*Hail-Mary picture - hold the camera upside down over your head (and, for example, the heads of a crowd) while looking up into the (large) viewfinder area for composition.

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Great post! For my 58yo eyes I would struggle with the articulated screen holding it as you describe, especially the raised arms pic.😂 My favorite ever camera was a Rolleiflex.

[jaapv]

In my book a reversible flip screen is mainly useful for selfie-vlogging 

[LBJ2]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:01 AM, WvE said:

It might be regarded as heresy but in the next M, I would like to see a screen that can be titled/swiveled horizontally (at least). I find the flippy screen of my Nikon to be quite handy. The M has a screen so why not make it more versatile by adding a tilting option? This may perhaps to some extent also obviate the need for those, in my opinion, fiddly Visoflexes. The only challenge will be keeping the dimensions of the current M’s.

We shall see. The M11 has for me been a truly surprising and successful inclusion of very modern camera tech while maintaining a true rangefinder camera and experience. Very impressive what Leica has done in the M11 IMO. More than a few "I would never have thought possible in a rangefinder" features with one of the best 60Mps sensors out there to boot! So who knows maybe a rangefinder flip or swivel screen is possible one day too. Let's see "If" the rumored Q3 flip screen comes to be or not and "if" so and works well, could be some indication for other Leica cameras. One obvious thing about camera flip screens--you don't have to use it if you don't want to. Leave it in fixed screen position if it offends or you don't need it. 

For me the Visoflex 2 works very well for some flip screen scenarios like holding the M11 very low. So does LV via the rear screen, with the M11 set to zone focus for holding the M11 high over a large crowd for instance. 

 I also use my iPhone as an external screen with the M11. For instance with iPhone in left hand and M11 in right, easy to set the zone focus on the M11 and hold the camera over a crowd while using the iPhone to frame the composition. I just have to remember to turn off iPhone Auto-Lock to maintain a constant connection which so far has been very stable with recent app and camera firmware. There is however some lag to be aware of when composing on the iPhone. I can do the same holding the camera lower to the ground if needed. This also works very well with the M11 on a tripod for a couple different scenarios too.

The above scenarios are a small percentage of my typical use-case. However, with a little practice and familiarisation beforehand so I'm not fumbling around in the moment, I feel in most cases I can get the shot as needed. 

P.S. With the iPhone and Fotos App in Remote and the M11 in zone focus is also a great way to take discrete public /street-shots while sitting at a cafe, bar or some other table or counter situation. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by LBJ2

[charlesphoto99]

Shooting an M while looking through a phone seems like it would really be awkward and the antithesis of M photography. That said, I think one of these (hot shoe phone holder) might make it that much less awkward, though more visible to others. Personally, I often shoot fast moving situations without looking through a viewfinder, but it takes years of practice to learn your angles. Flip out screens seem most useful for video, which apparently is dead in the M line. 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1668642-REG/ulanzi_2575_st_06s_360_degree_rotatable_phone.html

Edited May 15, 2023 by charlesphoto99

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[adan]

One additional feature of a flippable screen (properly implemented - flip and rotate) is that it would make it possible to turn any future M digital into a "-D" version, by hiding the LCD.

Epson's R-D1 digital rangefinder (as lct can tell us) offered that 19 years ago (along with a manual cocking lever that actually cocked the shutter!).

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/1924025521/epsonrd1

However, that would remove the option for Leica to produce and offer "-D" cameras later - at a significant price premium.  

 

[pippy]

6 minutes ago, adan said:

One additional feature of a flippable screen (properly implemented - i.e. Broken-Off) is that it would make it possible to turn any future M digital into a "-D" version...

Fixed!............

Carry On!

P.