M11 or M11 Monochrome ?

[brickftl]

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58 minutes ago, PavelS said:

 

I find the variety of opinions in this thread interesting, as they reflect different tastes, experiences, and expectations among users.

As someone new to Monochrome, I purchased the M11M in January of this year. Being an avid black-and-white photographer for many years, I’ve used various camera systems and developed a love for the Silver Efex plugin for Lightroom as my go-to method for achieving consistently pleasing monochrome images, regardless of the digital camera I’ve used. I mainly shoot portraits and cityscapes, and in both cases, I prefer contrasty “recipes” inspired by Kodak Tri-X 400, sometimes diluted with a bit of Dynamic Brightness if needed. For less contrasty scenes, I favor an Agfa APX 400-based recipe. Last year, I also began experimenting with monochrome conversions in Lightroom using color channel mixing, creating my own presets with Silver Efex as a reference point.

Initially, my first images from the M11M were quite a shock—they appeared very flat compared to what I was used to. Even comparing the "Hi Contrast" JPEGs from the M11M to those from the SL2-S or SL, I found the Leica M11M images lacking in contrast and depth. I loved the images taken with the SL or SL2 much more, as they looked "processed" and required little to no adjustments.

My theory is that Leica deliberately tuned the M11M files to be flat, resembling a “film negative” with extreme latitude, offering photographers the creative freedom to develop the image according to their taste and experience—similar to working with film, where the way you develop the negative and turn it into a positive is entirely up to you.

However, using the "plain" M11M files feels unfinished, pale, and unappealing—simply not right. Considering their potential when properly processed, it seems like they could yield much better results with some effort and skill, using the right tools (like Lightroom or Capture One). For example, just applying an Adaptive BW profile in Lightroom makes a significant difference; I recommend adjusting the slider below the default 100% to see the effect and find the most natural result for each image.

I’m still in the process of learning how to tweak these files to achieve the best results because I see the potential and enjoy the creative process. It’s somewhat frustrating, though, that Leica hasn’t provided a dedicated guide or even included the M11 and M11M in the Leica Fotos film looks. Wouldn’t it be great if Leica offered proprietary software specifically for developing these images? I mean, for exposure adjustments, color handling (not for Monochrom, of course), contrast, sharpness, etc.—not for image manipulation, which I believe should be left to third-party editors. Similar to how Hasselblad Focus functions.

Currently, I’m experimenting with slider adjustments and masks (to control the exposure of sky) in Lightroom to unlock the full potential of the M11M’s monochrome files, as well as using Silver Efex for more stylized black-and-white images. So far, I feel the results are not as “organic” as I’d like, but I understand that’s more about refining my post-processing skills rather than a fault of the camera itself.

What are your thoughts?

M11M which is my favorite camera of all time - yes it's SOOC images are flat. Takes a bit of post process such as I did with this.

 

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[PavelS]

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

Look at the default import contrast curves in LR. Matter of seconds to adjust, or to create a different default tone curve as a better starting point.

Whatever works best for you and the desired end result. What I want to say is that what I originally viewed as disadvantage I view more as a "feature" now. Flat profile gives most latitude for desired effect and each of us is desiring different look based on taste and experience. It just requires some conscious effort but as a starting point I find it perfect. I just see some users are posting images where the starting point remained also the end result.

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, PavelS said:

Whatever works best for you and the desired end result. What I want to say is that what I originally viewed as disadvantage I view more as a "feature" now. Flat profile gives most latitude for desired effect and each of us is desiring different look based on taste and experience. It just requires some conscious effort but as a starting point I find it perfect. I just see some users are posting images where the starting point remained also the end result.

Using your own words…

”However, using the "plain" M11M files feels unfinished, pale, and unappealing—simply not right. Considering their potential when properly processed, it seems like they could yield much better results with some effort and skill, using the right tools (like Lightroom or Capture One). For example, just applying an Adaptive BW profile in Lightroom makes a significant difference; I recommend adjusting the slider below the default 100% to see the effect and find the most natural result for each image.”

 

I merely gave you an alternative way to immediately upon import give you a better starting point, without sliders or profiles, based on your own comments above.

Edited June 20 by Jeff S

[PavelS]

5 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Using your own words…

”However, using the "plain" M11M files feels unfinished, pale, and unappealing—simply not right. Considering their potential when properly processed, it seems like they could yield much better results with some effort and skill, using the right tools (like Lightroom or Capture One). For example, just applying an Adaptive BW profile in Lightroom makes a significant difference; I recommend adjusting the slider below the default 100% to see the effect and find the most natural result for each image.”

 

I merely gave you an alternative way to immediately upon import give you a better starting point, without sliders or profiles, based on your own comments above.

The point I was trying to make is that M11M unlike other cameras I have experienced requires more conscious work with the files to get great results and I believe that Leica intended so. It was confusing to me at first, now I have accepted it as way of work with M11M. So I am not complaining about the files but about lack of explanation by Leica - if that makes sense. That is why I would love to see Leica get involved in the post process with their own tool.

[Jeff S]

Leica does partner with Adobe.  Inexperienced users complained initially about flat M10 Monochrom files. Leica/Adobe responded by changing the default import tone curve from linear to S shaped, resulting in a more contrasty file. Just as I suggested for you, if desired. Once and done. 
 

Leica Akademie also has courses regarding PP, Lightroom, etc, using their gear.  And there are myriad other available sources. These teach basic principles and techniques.  It’s always been up to the user to determine where, when and to what degree to apply those techniques for desired results.  The M11M is no different in that regard. Users vary greatly on picture interpretations, shooting and editing… thankfully. There is no one size fits all; it has always been up to users to learn and apply tools and techniques to create desired end results, especially prints, film or digital.