Leica M11 Monochrom Pattern Noise

[DBounce]

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I’ve been playing with the Leica M 11 Monochrom for about a week now. At higher ISOs, I have noticed the presence and some images of a tartan-like grid pattern. At first I thought it was lights that was causing this pattern. Then I started to wonder if my sensor was defective. After reading a review, I noticed that the reviewer also mentioned that at ISO’s as low as 6400 a tartan-like grid pattern could appear in the shadow areas of the image. So my question are as follows:

 

• Is this a defective sensor?
• Is it something that can be fixed with firmware?
• Are Leica aware of this issue.
• Are there plans to address it this matter?

High ISO performance is all well and good, but if the image is ruined by pattern noise, then it no longer becomes usable at those ISO’s. More concerning is the revelation that this pattern noise may be present as early as 6400 ISO.

This discovery has taken the shine of this camera for me. I do hope for some good news from Leica soon.

Edited April 27, 2023 by DBounce

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[rustyrus]

So first this post :

 

Got my Monochrom last week. Awesome camera. Usable 100K ISO! Clean at 50K… I’m blown away. This camera has superpowers.

 

Now this? 

To quote the article:

"For those making accurate exposures that need no further lifting, ISO 50,000 is still very pleasing indeed, with heavy noise only becoming a little over-powering from ISO 100,000 to 200,000. At these top sensitivity settings, and indeed settings from 6400, some caution is required when lightening shadow areas as without care a distinctive, tartan-like grid pattern can appear. It pays then to get exposures as right in-camera as possible, and perhaps a little bright, and as JPEG noise reduction is a little destructive at these higher ISO settings they are best served RAW."

 

So don't boost shadows 5 stops in light room in high ISO's. Seem pretty reasonable to me. You said it yourself, clean images at 50k. Expose properly and you are set

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by rustyrus

[adan]

Are you rotating the pictures to any extent in post-processing? Or otherwise "stretching" the pixels (distortion correction)?

It is a feature of the Monochrom imaging hardware/processing - and has been noted with the previous M10 and Q2 Monochroms. You can find a handful of posts regarding "tartan" or "waffle" patterns with those cameras also on this forum.

And to some extent the post-processing software being used: Adobe LR, Adobe ACR/Photoshop, C1 etc.

With color sensors, the image is always slightly blurred due to demosaicing/de-bayerizing - the sharing or averaging of luminance data between neighboring R/G/B pixels to get orange, yellow, teal and purple pixels in the final image.

Monochrom camera images are not demosaiced, so each pixel stands alone, sharp and clear. Part of the Monochroms' usefulness - slightly sharper images than de-bayerized color pictures from the same megapixels.

However, if the picture is rotated at the raw development stage, the grid of pixels the camera captures must be remapped onto a new pixel grid, at an angle, and that can cause a moiré pattern between the two (original and new) pixel grids.

Just as in these other examples of how moirés are formed by overlapping grids that are not perfectly aligned: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moiré_pattern

Some note that the final effect is often less than it appears at that stage, because the "development" screen image of, say, Adobe Camera Raw, uses a "fast and dirty" algorithm for drawing the image in progress quickly. Once "collapsed" into a final picture (.psd, .tif, .jpg, etc.), the image is rendered with a better algorithm. 

The effect is magnified by using "heroic" post-processing in the development - major tonal changes, shadow recovery, sharpening, "clarity" or "dehaze" filtering, and so on. Anything that makes neighboring pixels even more different from their neighbors. Running a noise-reduction setting on troublesome images may "blur" them enough to kill the tartan or waffle (haven't tried it myself - it only just occured to me  ).

Edited April 27, 2023 by adan

[Chaemono]

It’s a LR JPEG compression artefacf. No such tartan-like grid pattern with C1 nor with the in-camera JPEG. See #48, #50#, #54 here: 

 

 

 

 

[trickness]

Yeah, that was my post above about the Q2M. You absolutely have to expose properly at higher ISO’s… If you try to do shadow recovery or bring it up even a stop and a half, you start to see the waffle. So just get the exposure right the first time… If you’re trying to expose for the highlights, and yet still recover deep shadows with a high ISO Setting on a monochrom camera, you’re going to see the waffle at some point.

 

(note I’m using Lightroom, not C1)

Edited April 27, 2023 by trickness

[DBounce]

3 hours ago, rustyrus said:

So don't boost shadows 5 stops in light room in high ISO's. Seem pretty reasonable to me. You said it yourself, clean images at 50k. Expose properly and you are set

This is SOOC. No post processing. Just the Raw image.

[rustyrus]

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1 minute ago, DBounce said:

This is SOOC. No post processing. Just the Raw image.

Post some pictures 

[darlesch]

In Lightroom, turn off lens profile corrections. The grid pattern is from distortion correction by Lightroom. C1 doesn’t apply profile corrections upon import which is why it doesn’t appear there. 

[DBounce]

1 hour ago, darlesch said:

In Lightroom, turn off lens profile corrections. The grid pattern is from distortion correction by Lightroom. C1 doesn’t apply profile corrections upon import which is why it doesn’t appear there. 

Thanks, you are right. I just looked at the images again. These artifacts are caused by the lens correction. Now I feel dumb… but I’m really happy that my camera is working properly.

Edited April 27, 2023 by DBounce

[darlesch]

3 hours ago, DBounce said:

Thanks, you are right. I just looked at the images again. These artifacts are caused by the lens correction. Now I feel dumb… but I’m really happy that my camera is working properly.

No problem. My own files had the same issue until I figured it out. Hopefully others can come across this thread as I’ve seen it in other reviews too claiming a fix is coming. This is a simple work around for now I guess.

[Jon Warwick]

aside from the apparent conclusion that this pattern is caused by lens correction ....does anyone separately know what happens if one uses Leica's in-camera "perspective control" function, does it cause the same problematic pattern?

[Chaemono]

In C1 the lens correction can be applied manually. For the APO 50 the auto lens correction in LR corresponds to a manual distortion correction of -1 in LR, the exported image shows the pattern, and +120 in C1, the exported image shows no pattern, both with shadows at +100. It's a LR export compression issue. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited April 29, 2023 by Chaemono

[oworbs]

do you guys generally recommend switching to C1 for the M11M? I've always used LR but downloaded C1 because I spotted these damn patterns yesterday and generally find many pictures more pleasing SOOC in C1. I just don't know if its worth learning the whole C1 Program or just turning off the lens correction in LR and moving on....

Edited April 29, 2023 by oworbs

[Chaemono]

Perhaps. The pattern only shows up in lowlight, high contrast scenes when shadows are lifted by more than +60 and the lens corrections are on in LR. As far as preference for the C1 preset tone curves is concerned, one can export the DNG as a TIFF after some initial exposure correction in C1. TIFFs provide lots of headroom for dodging and burning with the LR tools. There is no need to learn C1 IMO.

[hydet]

David Farkas talked about this tonight in his M11 webinar. Always turn the lens correction off in LR for the M10M, M11M and Q monochrom to avoid banding. 

[radialMelt]

Just finding this thread now. The strange "waffle" or "tartan" pattern has shown up in a number of my High ISO night-time shots with the Q2 Monochrom.

Quote

The pattern only shows up in lowlight, high contrast scenes when shadows are lifted by more than +60 and the lens corrections are on in LR.

I wish I could say this was the case for me as well, but it is not. I am looking at a DNG right now, no adjustments made, "Enable Profile Corrections" is not checked, yet the pattern is clearly visible. Latest version of Lightroom Classic.

The only real solution I've found - when using Adobe Camera Raw anyway - is to not shoot over ISO 25000, and do not attempt to raise the shadows or add Clarity in post.

Out of curiosity I just loaded the same image into Capture One (latest version, trial) and I see no such artifacts. Makes you wonder what is going on behind the scenes in LR/ACR. And actually playing a little further, I am able to push the same file much, much further in Capture One without seeing any banding or the "waffle" pattern. The difference is remarkable.

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by radialMelt

[sergiomarried]

I can confirm this same behavior in M10M, regardless of lenses, it happens to some degree and with certain degree of intensity depending on factors like: light circumstances, ISO and how much you try pushing the files in post… In my case, turning off lens correction often helps significantly, though not yet on pair with Capture One DNG cleanness, which is impressive. I still prefer using LR for 99,9% of my work.

I’ve learned to live with this minor issue since the launch of M10M and I still enjoy/use this amazing tool for all kind of personal/profesional work. I’ve made huge prints of photographs made under these difficult conditions and, with a little bit of care, they look breathtaking… 

Bottom line: it’s fair and honest to highlight this effect, but if you’re reading about this: please don’t panic and run away from enjoying these special tools. 

PS: I’m actually looking to add a 2nd M10M body myself to my full monochrome kit… it’s a dream camera for B&W committed photographers.

Saludos 💫

[Chaemono]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb radialMelt:

Just finding this thread now. The strange "waffle" or "tartan" pattern has shown up in a number of my High ISO night-time shots with the Q2 Monochrom.

I wish I could say this was the case for me as well, but it is not. I am looking at a DNG right now, no adjustments made, "Enable Profile Corrections" is not checked, yet the pattern is clearly visible. Latest version of Lightroom Classic.

The only real solution I've found - when using Adobe Camera Raw anyway - is to not shoot over ISO 25000, and do not attempt to raise the shadows or add Clarity in post.

Out of curiosity I just loaded the same image into Capture One (latest version, trial) and I see no such artifacts. Makes you wonder what is going on behind the scenes in LR/ACR. And actually playing a little further, I am able to push the same file much, much further in Capture One without seeing any banding or the "waffle" pattern. The difference is remarkable.

 

Adobe is likely busy at the moment trying to add AI functionality to their apps in order to fend off all those open source AI tools that are trying to disrupt their offering. Fixing weird export compression patterns in Leica monochrome cameras is probably the least of their worries right now, I’m afraid.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jplomley]

Also watch for signs of sensor bifurcation. It will present as a line down the middle of the image, most visible on open sky. Depending how aggressive the processing is with the dehaze and clarity tools in LR, this can be seen.  

[Guest]

On 4/29/2023 at 10:52 AM, oworbs said:

do you guys generally recommend switching to C1 for the M11M? I've always used LR but downloaded C1 because I spotted these damn patterns yesterday and generally find many pictures more pleasing SOOC in C1. I just don't know if its worth learning the whole C1 Program or just turning off the lens correction in LR and moving on....

Absolutely you should run, not walk, to develop Leica Monochrome DNGs in C1 (not Lightroom). Image quality is significantly better.

Among other things, C1 allows you to apply a Linear Response curve. Lens profiles, including some you will not find in LightRoom, can be applied with precise percentages and account for sharpness falloff across the image, in addition to distortion and vignetting. Five film grain choices (fine, silver, soft, tabular, harsh) offer more in C1 as well.

LR still has more 'catalog' features and is ahead in 'AI' capabilities - with C1 you would be more likely to use Photoshop for some of that work (... C1 will not make you cancel your Adobe subscription).