ISO performance on SL2-s vs SL2

[Sohail]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi all, 

I'm seriously thinking of buying an SL2-s as a second body to my SL2.

A question: is the ISO performance on SL2-s markedly better than SL2. For my tastes, anything above 3200 on SL2 is not great. 6400 is so-so.

Thanks in advance.

Sohail

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[SrMi]

23 minutes ago, Sohail said:

Hi all, 

I'm seriously thinking of buying an SL2-s as a second body to my SL2.

A question: is the ISO performance on SL2-s markedly better than SL2. For my tastes, anything above 3200 on SL2 is not great. 6400 is so-so.

Thanks in advance.

Sohail

Yes, SL2-S is better at high ISOs, especially when lifting shadows. Note that you can run both SL2 and SL2-S though AI NR tools to reduce the impact of high ISO.

[LocalHero1953]

From my recollection, the SL2-S has about a 2 stop advantage over the SL2. But the noise patterns seem different (preferable IMO) in the SL2-S as well.
I had the SL2 for 3-4 months before trading it for the SL2-S.

[SrMi]

Note that with SL2-S, you'll be noticing false colors (aliasing) at the base ISO when using sharp lenses. IIRC, they disappear once ISO is raised to 400 or higher.

[Patrickfoley@mac.com]

The Photons to Photos website has a useful tool for comparing cameras’ dynamic range at various ISO values. The SL2 and SL2-S are among the cameras listed. You might find it interesting. https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

[kobra]

4 hours ago, Patrickfoley@mac.com said:

The Photons to Photos website has a useful tool for comparing cameras’ dynamic range at various ISO values. The SL2 and SL2-S are among the cameras listed. You might find it interesting. https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

To me, the part that I don't understand on that chart is what effect the "scaling" has after ISO 1600 on the SL2. In comparison, the SL2-S has not scaling indicated. While the chart indicates a 1 stop DR advantage for the SL2-S, I suspect that this is true only to about ISO1600. After that, I believe the differences in "high ISO" images will be even more pronounced. But, the above is a layman's view, so I'm sure there are others who can offer up many more details. 

@Sohail - I think my experience with the SL2 may be similar to yours. I've noticed times when even at ISO 3200 the noise is significant and may need to be dealt with in software, and like you the images at ISO 6400 need a lot of work; even with some of the new denoise programs I often cannot save an image. I've not had an SL2-S, but I am tempted due to all that I hear about high ISO performance. I will be watching other comments here with interest. 

Brad

 

[davidmknoble]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

@Sohail, this post has two SL2-S images.  The second one (as noted in the post) is at ISO 25,000.  The SL2-S is several stops ahead of the SL2 in higher ISO’s.

 

[kobra]

20 minutes ago, davidmknoble said:

@Sohail, this post has two SL2-S images.  The second one (as noted in the post) is at ISO 25,000.  The SL2-S is several stops ahead of the SL2 in higher ISO’s.

 

@davidmknoble I remember your thread, and that image at ISO 25,000. It was amazingly clean. I cannot imagine using the SL2 at that ISO level. Your thread was/is one of the reasons that I am still considering an SL2-S. Thanks for the reminder!

Brad

[Sohail]

8 hours ago, SrMi said:

Yes, SL2-S is better at high ISOs, especially when lifting shadows. Note that you can run both SL2 and SL2-S though AI NR tools to reduce the impact of high ISO.

I've used Topaz tools. Still not totally satisfied.

[kobra]

30 minutes ago, Sohail said:

I've used Topaz tools. Still not totally satisfied.

I agree; I've also tried the latest DXO Deep Prime XD and not satisfied either. 

@Sohail - since you are such a wonderful master of environmental portraits, I can see why you are frustrated at times also. I find it especially challenging with trying to cleanup the high ISO files from the SL2 with images of faces which often go from grainy to plastic smooth. Perhaps others have more mastery over post processing, but I am finding it more challenging than I expected. 

For me, I'm not yet ready to get a second body... but if/when I am, I'm sure it would be an SL2-S, not an SL2. Let us know what you decide!

Brad

[LocalHero1953]

8 hours ago, SrMi said:

Note that with SL2-S, you'll be noticing false colors (aliasing) at the base ISO when using sharp lenses. IIRC, they disappear once ISO is raised to 400 or higher.

Interesting - it's not something I've noticed. Can you post an example?

[SrMi]

45 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Interesting - it's not something I've noticed. Can you post an example?

It is well known that 24MP FF sensors without AA filters are rather prone to aliasing and that aliasing can be hidden either by diffraction or noise (or a "bad" lens). Tomorrow, I will shoot my bookcase to demonstrate.

Here is a relevant thread:

 

[LocalHero1953]

30 minutes ago, SrMi said:

It is well known that 24MP FF sensors without AA filters are rather prone to aliasing and that aliasing can be hidden either by diffraction or noise (or a "bad" lens). Tomorrow, I will shoot my bookcase to demonstrate.

Here is a relevant thread:

 

Ah, moiré - yes, I occasionally get that on fabrics, but removed it easily in post.

[LBJ2]

15 hours ago, Sohail said:

Hi all, 

I'm seriously thinking of buying an SL2-s as a second body to my SL2.

A question: is the ISO performance on SL2-s markedly better than SL2. For my tastes, anything above 3200 on SL2 is not great. 6400 is so-so.

Thanks in advance.

Sohail

When I asked the same question on this forum, someone posted these two references :

 

https://leica-akademie.com.au/sl2-s-at-high-iso/

[davidmknoble]

Unfortunately, this is all physics and there are trade-offs.

If you want less noise at higher ISO’s, then the SL2-S fits that bill.  However, high ISO’s typically produce some noise.  If left alone, as opposed to constant processing, it frequently does look like film grain - depending on the output type and size.  For the SL2-S, the backlit sensor has a second sweet spot for high ISO performance (if memory serves that is around ISO 3200).

All 24mp sensors can have moire problems, just like higher resolution sensors.  Each sensor has a limit where the very fine details are thinner than the pixels.  Lenses have a little to do with it, but with the modern Leica lenses, typically not at the current sensors.

If you truly do not want noise, shoot at the lower ISO’s.  For the SL2-S I do not shoot at ISO 50, but will at ISO 100 and it requires a tripod for landsacpe and slow shutter speeds, or more wide-open for hand held shots.

You to have to pick what’s most important for your style and given the same technology level, larger pixels still gather more light and smaller pixels (more dense) allow finer level of details.  For me, it is dynamic range because I hit some light that even graduated filters have a little trouble with and I want to pull the shadows up.  Strong high ISO sensors typically allow this (hence less noise).

[Stuart Richardson]

2 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

When I asked the same question on this forum, someone posted these two references :

 

https://leica-akademie.com.au/sl2-s-at-high-iso/

For me at least, that thread is a good reminder of just how good a camera the SL2 is. At least to my eyes, it is only ISO 12500 and above where there is a significant difference. And of course for everything under that the SL2 gives you an extra 23mp (and it gives you that above too, so it should capture more noise, but also more detail). With some noise reduction or in certain cases, a conversion to black and white, I think you would find it hard to see a big difference in well exposed photos unless you need to push them around a lot in editing. This is of course not including video, where the higher ISO will be a more significant difference than it is in stills. So to my eyes at least, I think the questions are: 1. How often do you expect to be shooting above ISO 3200? 2. How important is the extra resolution to you?

[Photoworks]

here is an image at 3200 ISO

AI products modify images by changing details, adding lines, and non-natural elements. this is the Base capture one noise reduction on 2 DXO v3 edits

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Sohail]

9 hours ago, kobra said:

I agree; I've also tried the latest DXO Deep Prime XD and not satisfied either. 

@Sohail - since you are such a wonderful master of environmental portraits, I can see why you are frustrated at times also. I find it especially challenging with trying to cleanup the high ISO files from the SL2 with images of faces which often go from grainy to plastic smooth. Perhaps others have more mastery over post processing, but I am finding it more challenging than I expected. 

For me, I'm not yet ready to get a second body... but if/when I am, I'm sure it would be an SL2-S, not an SL2. Let us know what you decide!

Brad

 

Thanks, Brad for the kind words.

I was relatively pleased with the performance of the Q1/SL1 at higher ISO levels. The SL2 for all its strengths is poor in low light. Whenever this discussion comes up here, it gets too technical for me.  If the SL2-S really does have two stops on the SL2, all other things equal, then it's a no-brainer. I'll get it. Makes sense to use it in conjunction with the SL2. Also for headshots, 25MP is enough. Everything else, barring lowlight scenarios, would be with the SL2
 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Ah, moiré - yes, I occasionally get that on fabrics, but removed it easily in post.

Yes, false colors, aliasing, moire.

Yes, it is removable in post but you lose details. Classic test example is the Siemens chart.

[LBJ2]

3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

For me at least, that thread is a good reminder of just how good a camera the SL2 is. At least to my eyes, it is only ISO 12500 and above where there is a significant difference. And of course for everything under that the SL2 gives you an extra 23mp (and it gives you that above too, so it should capture more noise, but also more detail). With some noise reduction or in certain cases, a conversion to black and white, I think you would find it hard to see a big difference in well exposed photos unless you need to push them around a lot in editing. This is of course not including video, where the higher ISO will be a more significant difference than it is in stills. So to my eyes at least, I think the questions are: 1. How often do you expect to be shooting above ISO 3200? 2. How important is the extra resolution to you?

As a fellow photograph and SL2 owner, I agree with much of what you wrote here. I do not feel limited with the SL2 ISO performance as is for photography. As always with any camera if I need more light saturation on the subject/composition then we all have multiple techniques that can be used to increase light saturation as needed BEFORE, during and after capture.

To me, having more resolution to work with in my photography is much more important than super high ISO performance, but that's me and my usage. As a videographer I might have a different opinion.