Small 35mm with pleasing bokeh for busy backgrounds?

[JoshuaR]

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The longer I’ve spent with the M system, the more I’ve realized what my personal, specific needs are. My main lens is 35mm, and I live in a wooded area with lots of trees. My current lens, the CV Ultron 35/2 v2, is excellent in every way except for its somewhat nervous and distracting bokeh when shot against the leaves and tree branches that seem to surround my home in all directions and appear in the background of every family photo I take.

So: what’s the 35mm lens with the out of focus rendering that works best against complicated backgrounds? I’m open to almost any lens, new or old, although I’d like it to be small, since 35mm is my everyday focal length. Fast aperture is not a requirement at all, and budget isn’t too much of a consideration, either (although I’m dreading a little hearing that the answer is the FLE!). I’m shooting on an M10 and M4-P.

Many, many thanks for any guidance!

Edited March 19, 2023 by JoshuaRothman

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[evikne]

The better corrected the lens is, the smoother the bokeh you get. This means that the 35mm APO Summicron should be one of the best lenses, also in terms of bokeh. From many examples I've seen, this seems to be quite true.

[JoshuaR]

39 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

The FLE has a terribly busy bokeh wide open in many situations. Also do not fall for the "King of bokeh" moniker (35/2 IV). IMHO the best bang for the buck (sharpest of all f/1.4 Leica lenses wide open, not breaking the bank, creamy bokeh) is the Distagon ZM 35/1.4, but this lens is "dead inside", AKA no character whatsoever.

Maybe it’s just an unsolvable problem! Small + wide open + non-weird foliage may not be possible. I’ve been thinking of just getting the 35 Summarit for this reason.

[adan]

The 35mm Summicron-M ASPH (non-APO) has notably smooth, soft bokeh (always with the caveat that bokeh can vary with lens-background, subject-background and lens-subject distances). Very free of the "bright ring blurs" that can jumble together to produce complex or "nervous" bokeh.

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It is virtually as compact as any other 35mm f/2.0 M lens (at least on the camera), but it is rather dense and heavy for its size (a lot of thick glass packed inside).

The Summarit f/2.4-5 ASPH does share some of its optical design with the Summicron ASPH, and is lighter, but lacks half an f/stop, and won't focus quite as close.

Here's a sample of the Summicron ASPH at work (f/2.0, minimum focus) This was the first version (1997-2015 or thereabouts?) but I expect the current version did not change the bokeh all that much, if at all.

[Huss]

The OP requested a small lens, so the ZM 35 Distagon mentioned is ruled out.  
 

There has to be a big M mount 35mm comparison test online someplace!

I never had an issue w my Summicron Asph w out of focus backgrounds, but I do not recall having foliage in the out of focus background!

So while it was nice n smooth for how I use it, foliage/leaves often shows up very differently.

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, JoshuaRothman said:

The longer I’ve spent with the M system, the more I’ve realized what my personal, specific needs are. My main lens is 35mm, and I live in a wooded area with lots of trees. My current lens, the CV Ultron 35/2 v2, is excellent in every way except for its somewhat nervous and distracting bokeh when shot against the leaves and tree branches that seem to surround my home in all directions and appear in the background of every family photo I take.

So: what’s the 35mm lens with the out of focus rendering that works best against complicated backgrounds? I’m open to almost any lens, new or old, although I’d like it to be small, since 35mm is my everyday focal length. Fast aperture is not a requirement at all, and budget isn’t too much of a consideration, either (although I’m dreading a little hearing that the answer is the FLE!). I’m shooting on an M10 and M4-P.

Many, many thanks for any guidance!

Some thoughts:

• You're fighting the lower compression of the 35mm focal length compared to a 50mm or longer lens.
• Size limitations of M lenses limit the potential for an optical design that delivers smooth backgrounds. A larger lens like the Sigma 35 1.4 or 1.2 for L-mount has a much easier time producing nice background blur.
• You're probably standing too far away from your subject for f/2 to render the out of focus areas in a pleasing way. Move closer to your subject to add more blur. 
• Make sure you're using f/2 – Due to 1/1000 sec. being its fastest shutter speed, your film M will not be able to use f/2 in bright light without a neutral density filter on the lens. You can also take the opposite approach and shoot stopped down to f/8 while being careful with your composition. At f/8, the background will be busy, but it won't be distracting if the composition is nice.

 

1 hour ago, evikne said:

The better corrected the lens is, the smoother the bokeh you get. This means that the 35mm APO Summicron should be one of the best lenses, also in terms of bokeh. From many examples I've seen, this seems to be quite true.

Agreed, which is why I finally bought one, painful as it may be from a cost perspective.

Edited March 19, 2023 by hdmesa

[Jeff S]

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I own the 35 Summicron ASPH v.1 and the 35 Summilux ASPH v.1 (FLE).  I don’t obsess over bokeh, more likely to stop down, but the latter requires more care and attention regarding ‘nervous’ backgrounds. On the other hand, the Summicron requires a bit more attention regarding flare (the 35 Summarit is said to be more forgiving regarding flare inducing conditions).
 

No perfect lens; the user remains key. For me, the 50 Summilux ASPH might provide the best overall compromises. 
 

Jeff

[dpitt]

I can see the attraction of the Summicron 35 v1, the same goes for the Summicron v4 and the APO Summicron is great... But if your budget is keeping you from buying one of those, I would suggest looking at the Summicron 35 v3.

It is IMO a good compromise between the v1 and the FLE ASPH and it is cheaper than the v4.

If you wonder what are the differences, this is a good place to start:

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/35mm_f/2_Summicron_III

And

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/M_Lenses_x_Focal_Length

[lct]

7 hours ago, JoshuaRothman said:

what’s the 35mm lens with the out of focus rendering that works best against complicated backgrounds? I’m open to almost any lens, new or old, although I’d like it to be small, since 35mm is my everyday focal length. Fast aperture is not a requirement at all, and budget isn’t too much of a consideration

As far a my lenses are concerned, Summilux 35/1.4v2, Nokton 35/1.4 SCv2, Summicron 35/2 asph v1, Summarit 35/2.5, Biogon 35/2.8

[hdmesa]

9 hours ago, JoshuaRothman said:

...I’m open to almost any lens, new or old, although I’d like it to be small, since 35mm is my everyday focal length...

In thinking some more, I highly recommend trying the CV 35 1.2 III. It's not small but it's not huge, either, especially without the optional and somewhat expensive hood. Of course you'd need something like a 6-stop ND filter to shoot wide open in daylight with your specific M cameras. IMO, it's worth the size difference versus all the small 35s because the subject separation and look this lens can create is nearly peerless for M lenses. Find the review thread for this lens over at FM Forums and look at all the wide open samples there.

[rramesh]

Voigtlander 35mm would be a good choice here. Especially the 1.2 v3 and the newer 1.5. They are both modern in design and render a reasonably pleasing bokeh, especially for family portraits. If speed is not critical also check out the Ultron 2.0.

Voigtlanders are value-for-money lenses.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, dpitt said:

I can see the attraction of the Summicron 35 v1, the same goes for the Summicron v4 and the APO Summicron is great... But if your budget is keeping you from buying one of those, I would suggest looking at the Summicron 35 v3.

It is IMO a good compromise between the v1 and the FLE ASPH and it is cheaper than the v4.

If you wonder what are the differences, this is a good place to start:

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/35mm_f/2_Summicron_III

And

https://wiki.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/M_Lenses_x_Focal_Length

Totally agree, I can not recommend the 35mm Summicron V3 highly enough. Small, well built and great great character. Leica’s hidden 35mm gem and great bang for buck, living in the shadow of the V4 KoB - although many see they either can’t tell the difference in images from V3 or V4, or slightly prefer V3.

I havent tried V4 mind you.

Good luck with the choices.

Edited March 20, 2023 by mcpallesen

[wizard]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb rramesh:

also check out the Ultron 2.0.

Well, that is the lens the OP already has (and does not like that much bokeh-wise).

[newtoleica]

The pre-fle Summilux 35 ASPH has a less busy bokeh than the fle v 1.

The fle v2 and the APO summicron both seem to have nice controlled out of focus - at a price.

I use the pre-fle and I don't find the focus shift an issue as I tend to use it either wide open of well stopped down.

[Lee S]

1.) CV 35 1.2 III lovely Bokeh and fast aperture

2.) Zeiss 35mm F2.8 C-Biogon. Very compact, extremely sharp with lovely Bokeh if you can live with the small aperture. 

[pgk]

The 35mm Summarit is small and has few detractors in terms of bokeh.

[sometimesmaybe]

i'll just jump on the CV 35mm f1.2 III bandwagon too - it's not super small, but it's perfectly manageable (the earlier versions are a tad larger and heavier) 

took it out for a quick shoot yesterday evening, just editing some of the images now. the vignette comes from the lens being shot wide open 

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[JoshuaR]

There are so many great responses here - thank you! I’m not normally bokeh-obsessed, but this one issue - nervous out of focus leaves and trees - has made me a bit crazy lately, perhaps especially because there are so many bare winter branches where I am.

The CV 35 f/1.2 iii images are beautiful. I’m going to try to find one to try, maybe at B&H. And I’m also now wondering whether it’s just time for me to pick up a 35mm Summicron and see how I get on. 35mm is my main focal length on digital — on film, it’s usually 28mm — and, although the Ultron is the best 35mm I’ve owned so far, I’ve never used a Leica lens outside of my Q2. I notice that, on my Q2, nervous bokeh is a less prevalent problem.

But I’m also wondering if I just need to improve my technique and rethink my approach to outdoor shooting. As @hdmesa says, it may simply be that, with busy foliage in the background, I should be shooting at f/8 and composing more carefully, or getting closer to my subjects if I insist on using a wide aperture. I just went back through my images and I notice that, on film, this isn’t as much of an issue for me. That’s almost certainly because I use Sunny 16 and am shooting stopped down when I’m outside surrounded by trees; I’ve just composed for depth and the pictures look great. It’s only on digital that I’m keeping the aperture ring open all the time. 

Many thanks again for these excellent responses!

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[Casey Jefferson]

4 hours ago, JoshuaRothman said:

 

The CV 35 f/1.2 iii images are beautiful. I’m going to try to find one to try, maybe at B&H. And I’m also now wondering whether it’s just time for me to pick up a 35mm Summicron and see how I get on. 35mm is my main focal length on digital — on film, it’s usually 28mm — and, although the Ultron is the best 35mm I’ve owned so far, I’ve never used a Leica lens outside of my Q2. I notice that, on my Q2, nervous bokeh is a less prevalent problem.

 

Funny that I just bought a Q2 alongside my 35mm summicron asph v1. The initial excitement didn't last that long that the lens render rather flat in comparison in terms of bokeh. It has, however, tremendous pop to the images without the help of blurry background, but in a very clinical way. 

I find that the Q2 lens didn't render in a way that the bokeh separate from the subject, where the 35 summicron does a lot better. 

Mind you, the 35 summicron has more structured/busy bokeh than the Q2, as much as I loved a smooth bokeh, I've come to appreciate that certain Leica lenses are just special, it's busy yet very pleasing and not distracting. Can't say that same for FLE judging from many photos. Hard to put it in words.

[Keith (M)]

Two 'bokeh' examples of the 35mm Nokton III f1.2 @ f1.2, first with M10M, the second with M11 (as ever, click for higher resolution versions).  The lens weighs circa 330g and takes 52mm filters as opposed to the Nokton Classic f1.4's 190g and 43mm filter thread.  I enjoy using both of them such that my '67 Summaron f2.8 and Biogon f2 have slipped down the preference list.

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