Seriously considering "downgrading"

[Leitz.]

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8 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

For what? 

What is true is that the reflective metering has always been inaccurate as hell in anything that remotely resembles a complex scene.  It has always been a guessing game.  The appropriate guess has always been to underexpose and rely on pulling shadows in post. The sensor is the sensor, sure, but relying purely on the metering values resulted in blown highlights all the time. The 10-R was better than the 10 in this regard, but the M11 has essentially eliminated the problem. 

You don’t need to rely on meters to expose for something “properly”. To choose the correct brightness for a scene by adjusting the aperture/shutter speed/ ISO values. You don’t need to guess. Not if you understand exposure.

I should be able to give you an MA and you should be able to choose the proper settings for the brightness you desire in that scene based on the film you have loaded. You shouldn’t need a meter. 

What I know is the more I shoot with my Leica the more I understand how my particular camera “sees” the scene and I can choose the exposure at this point without even looking through the viewfinder and nail it. You should get to the point where you can just look and choose the settings and nail your exposure.

The reliance on mirrorless cameras have dulled us from being able to do that. 
 

Saying a meter is “inaccurate” is something I don’t buy. The more you shoot the more you understand how your camera works. There’s no such thing as “underexposing” something. Do you think this photo is under exposed or over or just right? I wonder what the meter said when it looked at this scene 

 

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[Photoworks]

7 hours ago, Leitz. said:

Saying a meter is “inaccurate” is something I don’t buy. The more you shoot the more you understand how your camera works. There’s no such thing as “underexposing” something. Do you think this photo is under exposed or over or just right? I wonder what the meter said when it looked at this scene 

What is this?  what's up with this simple? It is an silhouette effect shot. It don't have to do anything with light meters and sensor tech. It is like mixing bananas with lemons ( forget about the oranges )

If you know about Alan's work is underexposes and makes midtowns go dark in post!

[Tailwagger]

7 hours ago, Leitz. said:

You don’t need to rely on meters to expose for something “properly”. To choose the correct brightness for a scene by adjusting the aperture/shutter speed/ ISO values. You don’t need to guess. Not if you understand exposure.

Nice shot, but it says zero, literally, about handling what I consider to be a difficult scene.  You seem to be confusing imagination and exposing for artistic intent with exposing with the appropriate latitude to enable capturing values in every zone, not just 0 and 9 or 10... regardless of one's final intent.   I've been shooting digital Ms for 10 years now, from the 240 on, with, dunno, couple of hundred thousand frames.  I have a pretty fair idea on what each model can and can not do in terms of recovering shadow and highlight.  What you call knowing, I call guessing. Educated, but a guess, never the less. 

 

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[jaapv]

Don't post copyrighted work that you don't hold permission for. You put the forum in legal jeopardy.

[Leitz.]

2 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

I have a pretty fair idea on what each model can and can not do in terms of recovering shadow and highlight.  What you call knowing,

Good. Because in Every photo you posted some portion is completely blown out beyond recovery. But that was your decision. Moody shots into the light. “Difficult scene” and all… Fair enough.

If I understand you correctly a “difficult scene” (from your samples) is where you point the camera at the sun and try to recover later in post from the shadow areas? So you have enough information there to recover. I guess… I’m not as knowledgeable as you obviously.

Shooting into the light is always tough on any camera. Careful not to over-process things. It says “hi .. I was in shadow and someone recovered the crap out of me” 😅

and no I’m not confusing anything. You’ve totally missed my point. I simply said people blow things out, not cameras. That’s all. The end. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Leitz.

[Leitz.]

2 hours ago, Photoworks said:

What is this?  what's up with this simple?

It’s a photo and I asked you a question.  Never mind. You still think cameras blow things out and it’s not you. 😅

Okay. I agree with you. M10 blow highlights. You’re right. I’m wrong. What was I thinking. my apologies. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Leitz.

[Leitz.]

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2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Don't post copyrighted work that you don't hold permission for. You put the forum in legal jeopardy.

Are links to photos acceptable? 

[jaapv]

Links are OK

[hdmesa]

Ugh, what a mess of arguments in this thread. This has all been discussed to death in existing M11 threads.

M10 variants would seem to easily blow highlights until we/Leica figured out base ISO was better set to 200 instead of 100.

M10/P/R/M meter that is used when using the rangefinder is fine in typical lighting but completely bipolar when used in difficult lighting. Shoot + review image on the LCD + reshoot sometimes is needed. This doesn't mean shots only come out accidentally overexposed, it means they can come out underexposed, correct, or overexposed. Some photographers have used this old-school rangefinder meter so long, though, they can often beat it at its own game, and they know when to dial in exposure comp. The upside to the M10 rangefinder metering is the shutter sound is quiet and short – two movements: open/close – versus the M11, which is always: close/open/close/open.

Regarding motion blur, if you want to review your M11 60mp files at 100% magnification on screen like you did your 24mp M10 files, then improve your shooting technique plus increase your shutter speed until you're happy with the results. Otherwise if you want to continue with poor handheld technique and slower shutters speeds, the M11 may not be for you.

[Leitz.]

@Tailwagger So to follow up on “latitude” and all that. Teach me more. So, looking at your work (just posting links), this beautiful portrait here is not challenging because all the light is pretty even.

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but this one

is a challenging photo because you’re pointing the camera at the sun. So choose the lowest ISO and a small aperture so you get enough shadow detail that you can recover later? That way you have information from 1-9 (“0” I consider totally black and has no information and “10” the same with highlights, totally blown beyond recovery).

In my experience most cameras can do that just by putting them on auto and multi meter (average). the problem I have with auto is the it’s inconsistent. Sometimes I want no information in the shadow area. Or sometimes I do. It’s a choice. 

This is my only point. It’s your choice. 

[Leitz.]

1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

Ugh, what a mess of arguments in this thread. This has all been discussed to death in existing M11 threads.

M10 variants would seem to easily blow highlights until we/Leica figured out base ISO was better set to 200 instead of 100.

M10/P/R/M meter that is used when using the rangefinder is fine in typical lighting but completely bipolar when used in difficult lighting. Shoot + review image on the LCD + reshoot sometimes is needed. This doesn't mean shots only come out accidentally overexposed, it means they can come out underexposed, correct, or overexposed. Some photographers have used this old-school rangefinder meter so long, though, they can often beat it at its own game, and they know when to dial in exposure comp. The upside to the M10 rangefinder metering is the shutter sound is quiet and short – two movements: open/close – versus the M11, which is always: close/open/close/open.

Regarding motion blur, if you want to review your M11 60mp files at 100% magnification on screen like you did your 24mp M10 files, then improve your shooting technique plus increase your shutter speed until you're happy with the results. Otherwise if you want to continue with poor handheld technique and slower shutters speeds, the M11 may not be for you.

Agree 100%… you’ve said it better than me by 100 miles. 

[Photoworks]

14 minutes ago, Leitz. said:

@Tailwagger So to follow up on “latitude” and all that. Teach me more. So, looking at your work (just posting links), this beautiful portrait here is not challenging because all the light is pretty even.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

but this one

Yes the with top is blown out, processing highlight recovery result in grey withs with no details or color.

The point you are not getting is that we are not talking about the stylistic photos we are looking at, I am talking about a normal image of a space where there is a cloud that has some sun. even underexposing it 3 stops at ISO 200 the DR of the M10 can always cover the dynamic range, colors start to shift and the shadow recovery looses in tonality and shadows can shift color.

The M10R and M11 have similar DR and they can do much better in this case.

 

[lct]

On 2/27/2023 at 8:45 PM, cozmopak said:

I am seriously considering selling my M11 and keeping my M10-P.  The sticky shutter of the M11 is not jiving with me.  Also, the colors on the M10 appear "richer" to my eyes.  The motion blur I am getting from the M11 is also significantly degrading its "on paper" higher spatial resolution.

Am I crazy?  Please convince me otherwise if you can!

Not sure this can convince you but M10 and M11 cameras don't pertain to the same history to me. The M11 is the first modern M camera sort of in that, for the first time, it can be used in both RF and TTL (LV) modes without significant drawbacks besides the lack of IBIS. I would keep your M10, then, if LV is not your cup of tea. Otherwise, if you get blurry results with your M11, you may wish to use 1/(2f)s shutter speeds, to begin with. It proves fast enough for me but others may prefer 1/(3f)s instead. As for richer colors, i cannot comment since i find the M11 colors somewhat too cartoonish as is but i shoot raw so it is not a problem for me. Just my 2 cents.

[DenverSteve]

12 hours ago, Leitz. said:

You don’t need to rely on meters to expose for something “properly”. To choose the correct brightness for a scene by adjusting the aperture/shutter speed/ ISO values. You don’t need to guess. Not if you understand exposure.

I should be able to give you an MA and you should be able to choose the proper settings for the brightness you desire in that scene based on the film you have loaded. You shouldn’t need a meter. 

What I know is the more I shoot with my Leica the more I understand how my particular camera “sees” the scene and I can choose the exposure at this point without even looking through the viewfinder and nail it. You should get to the point where you can just look and choose the settings and nail your exposure.

The reliance on mirrorless cameras have dulled us from being able to do that. 
 

Saying a meter is “inaccurate” is something I don’t buy. The more you shoot the more you understand how your camera works. There’s no such thing as “underexposing” something. Do you think this photo is under exposed or over or just right? I wonder what the meter said when it looked at this scene 

 

Agreed completely - except about the mirrorless cameras. 😉 I don’t believe you can blame technology for people’s ignorance.   I believe that any program or partial-auto system (including phones) allows people to spray and pray without any knowledge of what they, or the camera, is doing.  That’s okay as everyone doesn’t need to know how to shoot manually however, don’t blame the camera when things go array.  When you know how things work, you can compensate for high-key, low-key or backlit situations better.  

[Leitz.]

26 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

The M10R and M11 have similar DR and they can do much better in this case.

Lucky me 

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Blurry photos? 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/browse/Tripods-Support/ci/8310/N/4075788771

[jaapv]

15 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

The appropriate guess has always been to underexpose and rely on pulling shadows in post

Not mine...

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Ugh, what a mess of arguments in this thread. This has all been discussed to death in existing M11 threads.

M10 variants would seem to easily blow highlights until we/Leica figured out base ISO was better set to 200 instead of 100.

M10/P/R/M meter that is used when using the rangefinder is fine in typical lighting but completely bipolar when used in difficult lighting. Shoot + review image on the LCD + reshoot sometimes is needed. This doesn't mean shots only come out accidentally overexposed, it means they can come out underexposed, correct, or overexposed. Some photographers have used this old-school rangefinder meter so long, though, they can often beat it at its own game, and they know when to dial in exposure comp. The upside to the M10 rangefinder metering is the shutter sound is quiet and short – two movements: open/close – versus the M11, which is always: close/open/close/open.

Regarding motion blur, if you want to review your M11 60mp files at 100% magnification on screen like you did your 24mp M10 files, then improve your shooting technique plus increase your shutter speed until you're happy with the results. Otherwise if you want to continue with poor handheld technique and slower shutters speeds, the M11 may not be for you.

If you use judge-and-reshoot the histogram is your friend - one of the real advantages of mirrorless is the histogram in the viewfinder.

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[jaapv]

4 hours ago, Leitz. said:

Good. Because in Every photo you posted some portion is completely blown out beyond recovery.

Which does not matter at all when it is a highlight that does not need detail.Like the sun itself or a street light in the dark.

[cozmopak]

I may have offended some on this forum with my incendiary title.  There's zero doubt in my mind that the M11 is a beautiful camera.  But I do feel like the lack of IBIS for this high resolution sensor simply doesn't work for me.  Unless using the camera on a tripod or shooting at extremely high shutter speeds, maximizing the resolution is extremely difficult.  There are other advantages of the M11, namely the latitude of the files, but I somehow feel like the look of the M10 files are more Leica-esque.  It's difficult for me to put into words.  In any case, I've sold my M11 and will be sticking with my M10p for the time being.  I appreciate everyone's inputs!