A problematic strategy

[profschade]

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vor 8 Stunden schrieb lct:

Problem is the Elmarit 90/2.8 is not sold anymore and the Elmarit 28/2.8 asph seems to be abandoned by Leica. 

 

Fully agree with you

[250swb]

4 minutes ago, profschade said:

Thanks for the detailed listing of the deleted lenses. This is what I could also remember. And I do also think in terms of the customer. But less in a 'lens-by-lens' manner, which I consider dangerous, but in a 'system approach.' There is a certain point where a system is either not considered 'complete', anymore, or where there is a scarcity of lenses that are light and small and match with the philosophy of the M system. 

The Voigtlander APO lenses match or exceed the philosophy of the M system, unless if you count higher prices being an essential part of the Leica philosophy, I mean, some people do for reasons of elitism over and above image quality?

[profschade]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb dpitt:

It would be a pity if Leica would abandon the smaller, compact lenses. If you see the original Leica Barnacks, you understand how much a few mm can do in the look and feel of a camera. Despite the advance of technology the Leica camera grew from I -> II -> III -> IIIg -> M3 -> M5

Then the M6 was back to the size of the M2/M3/M4 

M6 -> M8/M9 - M240

Then back to smaller again to the M10 - M11

Collapsible lenses were a great invention. They are almost gone. Now if they kill the form factor of the Leica Elmarit 28 ASPH, an other step is taken.

I do not think you speak for most Leica users. There are many kinds. From relatively poor to very rich. The second hand market is important for the former. It is also feeding the bottom end of the new market. Second hand items lower the threshold to step into a Leica system. And the fact that the Leica products hold value better than most is important for all users I suppose.

For me Leica's essence is not expensiveness, it is optical quality combined with mechanical perfection and longevity (serviceability) to me. The Summarit 2.5 especially was lacking in that department. I think that was the main reason for its lesser popularity.

Fully agree with your thoughts on the Barnack strategy and the smallness factor. And sure, there is a large second hand market for Leica fans with less money. Good that it exists and that is fairly large and transparent.

[profschade]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb lct:

It is hard to sell an Elmarit 28/2.8 for EUR 2,350 while Cosina sells its Ultron 28/2 for EUR 850. Leica needs to cut prices on its entry lenses or quit making them, which would be a pity.   

Yes, but many people want Leica glass with their M and would nevertheless buy the Elmarit for the higher price

[UliWer]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb profschade:

There is a certain point where a system is either not considered 'complete', anymore, or where there is a scarcity of lenses that are light and small and match with the philosophy of the M system. 

Well, if you are in search for "incompleteness" to back your "strategical approach" you should better not look into the catalogue of M-lenses. Even though they have ditched some offers lately there are still more options than anybody could want (or afford). Not counting the backlists of Leica lenses from 90years or present offers by Voigtländer et al. 

[UliWer]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb profschade:

and would nevertheless buy the Elmarit for the higher price

Be assured: they still can (if they don't bother about waiting some time).

[lct]

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41 minutes ago, profschade said:

Yes, but many people want Leica glass with their M and would nevertheless buy the Elmarit for the higher price [...]

I prefer my v1 of it personally but is there enough demand for this lens? I have no idea but i guess the answer will come when the lens becomes available again hopefully. 

[Anbaric]

17 hours ago, UliWer said:

If one asks for the reasons, one should listen to customers (or dealers): people didn't buy enough of those lenses. The Summarits were unpopular because they were not so expensive: the Leica brand means expensive or extremely expensive, otherwise it isn't a "real" Leica.

I don't think the lower cost was the problem as far as customers were concerned. If anything, they weren't cheap enough, about the price the Summicrons were selling for just a few years earlier. And of course most people who wanted a less expensive alternative would look not just at the third-party competition but also at 'better' secondhand Leica lenses that could be had for the same sort of money. Why buy a 35/2.4 or a 50/2.4 when you could have the Summicron for a similar price? So I suppose the market was restricted to those who would only buy new and wouldn't buy third party, or to those who wanted something even smaller and lighter than the existing options, while retaining Leica optical quality (which these lenses did indeed deliver). I can certainly see the argument for a smaller, lighter lens making sense for a 90, but less so for a 50, where the Summarit didn't save that much size or weight and it was hard to avoid the impression that Leica had specified the slower aperture purely for reasons of product differentiation, giving them room to hike the price of the (previously entry level) 50 f/2 further. Has anyone else ever sold a standard 50mm lens of this complexity that was slower than f/2? All the slower lenses I can think of are simpler 3 or 4 element designs, or special purpose designs like macro lenses. And Leica still wanted several times the price mainstream manufacturers were charging for a 50/2 or faster.

But while low demand, for whatever reason, may have been a major factor in the demise of these lenses, perhaps there was another. I agree that the Leica brand now means expensive or extremely expensive, with a shift towards the latter in recent years as they have repositioned themselves in the market as suppliers of luxury goods. They really aren't now interested in customers who think that £2,180 is a bit much for a basic 50/2, let alone £4,300 for the Summilux or £6,950 for the APO. They want to attract people who think it's reasonable to spend £4500 on yet another film camera, or £7600 on upgrading to the latest digital. They have survived and prospered by successfully targeting a particular niche, and they leave the less expensive segment of the market to others. The Summarits weren't really a good fit for this strategy, but neither were they cheap enough for price-conscious customers who had the option of secondhand or third-party alternatives.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Anbaric

[Herr Barnack]

4 hours ago, Kiwimac said:

The 35 APO appears to be rarer than hen’s teeth. 

There are way more people walking this earth who have had face to face encounters with the pilots and occupants of "Unexplained Aerial Phenomena" (formerly known as UFOs) than there are Leica connoisseurs who have been able to lay hands on a copy of the 35 APO.   😢   😢   😢   😢

Come on. Leica - you're killing us!!

Edited February 12, 2023 by Herr Barnack

[logan2z]

10 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

There are way more people walking this earth who have had face to face encounters with the pilots and occupants of "Unexplained Aerial Phenomena" (formerly known as UFOs) than there are Leica connoisseurs who have been able to lay hands on a copy of the 35 APO.   😢   😢   😢   😢

Come on. Leica - you're killing us!!

So there weren't enough people who aspired to own a Leica lens and bought into the relatively affordable Summarit line, but there are loads of people chomping at the bit to buy the $8K 35 APO? 

I must have made some bad choices somewhere along the way in my life... 😉  

[lct]

23 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

[...] I agree that the Leica brand now means expensive or extremely expensive, with a shift towards the latter in recent years as they have repositioned themselves in the market as suppliers of luxury goods. They really aren't now interested in customers who think that £2,180 is a bit much for a basic 50/2 [...]

Indeed so why would Leica be interested in customers thinking that €2,300 is a bit (or a lot) much for a basic 28/2.8 lens?

[Herr Barnack]

14 minutes ago, logan2z said:

So there weren't enough people who aspired to own a Leica lens and bought into the relatively affordable Summarit line, but there are loads of people chomping at the bit to buy the $8K 35 APO? 

I must have made some bad choices somewhere along the way in my life... 😉  

Apparently I did, too - oh, the indiscretions of misspent youth that bite us in the ass in our old age.  😢

If I had only known - I would have become a guitarist for AC/DC and would be able to afford the 35 APO.

That said, I do own the 50/2.4 Summarit.  It is an outstanding little lens.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Herr Barnack

[logan2z]

7 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

That said, I do own the 50/2.4 Summarit.  It is an outstanding little lens.

I own the 35/2.4 and 75/2.4, although I have to say I've started to have dark thoughts of selling the 35 and *cough* 'upgrading' to the latest Summicron ASPH.  Optically, both lenses are terrific and it was sad to see their early demise.   

[UliWer]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb lct:

Indeed so why would Leica be interested in customers thinking that €2,300 is a bit (or a lot) much for a basic 28/2.8 lens?

This question is a good strategy to ensure that the Elmarit will be ditched in the near future - which it isn't now.

If they were not interested in selling lenses which are already expensive though not extremely so, why did they offer them and even improved them for digital use some years ago? 

I remember the times very well when in this Forum there was a huge demand for a 28mm Summilux. I think I was quite sole to say: what do you all want with this lens, too big, too expensive, no improvement on resoluton etc. The answer was: Don't you see the huge gap: there are Summiluxes from 21 to 50mm but none for 28mm!!!

When there was a rumor about a "retro" 1:2.8/35mm Summaron, everybody said: what a boring lens; we want our "steel rim," back. That's what they got.  The only "strategy" I see comes from customer's side. 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by UliWer

[Herr Barnack]

3 minutes ago, logan2z said:

I own the 35/2.4 and 75/2.4, although I have to say I've started to have dark thoughts of selling the 35 and *cough* 'upgrading' to the latest Summicron ASPH.  Optically, both lenses are terrific and it was sad to see their early demise.   

I would hang on to both.   Back when they were available, I should have gotten a copy of each. 

Still regretting missing out, but they were retired rather abruptly - catching me off guard as were many others, I'm guessing.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Herr Barnack

[Anbaric]

28 minutes ago, lct said:

Indeed so why would Leica be interested in customers thinking that €2,300 is a bit (or a lot) much for a basic 28/2.8 lens?

Well, as far as we know this one hasn't been discontinued, and its price is at the 'new normal' entry level for Leica, which I imagine they are perfectly happy with (whatever the rest of us think). Basic 28/2.8 lenses are common in other systems too, presumably because faster ones are genuinely more expensive to build (the 28/2 Summicron is about £1000 dearer than the 35/2) and tend to get bigger than some people would like. The 28 Elmarit has a long heritage, going back over half a century in various designs, so someone must be buying them. If I were in the market for a 28mm, some version of this (which would be a secondary lens for me, to go with a faster 50 or 35) might be the one I would get.

[FrozenInTime]

10 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Well, as far as we know this one hasn't been discontinued, and its price is at the 'new normal' entry level for Leica, which I imagine they are perfectly happy with (whatever the rest of us think). Basic 28/2.8 lenses are common in other systems too, presumably because faster ones are genuinely more expensive to build (the 28/2 Summicron is about £1000 dearer than the 35/2) and tend to get bigger than some people would like. The 28 Elmarit has a long heritage, going back over half a century in various designs, so someone must be buying them. If I were in the market for a 28mm, some version of this (which would be a secondary lens for me, to go with a faster 50 or 35) might be the one I would get.

Sales of the 28mm Elmarit might increase if Leica were to introduce a lens hood that was as compact as possible, replacing the unnecessarily stretched 12470.

[lct]

25 minutes ago, UliWer said:

If they were not interested in selling lenses which are already expensive though not extremely so, why did they offer them and even improved them for digital use some years ago?

Leica prices were lower and competition was not at its current level then. I bought my new Elmarit 28/2.8 asph v1 for €1,200 in 2006 i.e. for almost half the price of v2 now (€2,300) while Ultron 28/1.9 and 28/2 were bigger and less performant than the current Ultron 28/2 asph.

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, Herr Barnack said:

I would hang on to both. 

I probably will.  I'm not sure there's really any good reason to switch out the 35 Summarit for the Summicron, other than curiosity/GAS.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, FrozenInTime said:

Sales of the 28mm Elmarit might increase if Leica were to introduce a lens hood that was as compact as possible, replacing the unnecessarily stretched 12470.

Sales might also increase if you could actually order them. 🙂

It does seem odd they paired such a small lens with that hood. I wonder if it's any more effective than the previous version?