A problematic strategy

[lct]

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1 hour ago, Gregm61 said:

It's easy enough to assemble a lighter, less expensive set of Leica M mount lenses if that's what you want.

A 28mm f2.8 Elmarit, 50mm f2 Summicron (version V) and 90mm f2.8 Elmarit-M

Problem is the Elmarit 90/2.8 is not sold anymore and the Elmarit 28/2.8 asph seems to be abandoned by Leica. 

 

[adan]

1) I hope we all know by now that Leica builds lenses in batches. Because it is far more efficient to set up the grinding and milling machines once to make 1000-2000 dedicated parts, for say, 1000-2000 28mm Elmarit-M ASPHs, than to make one 28 Elmarit today, and reset the machines and make one 50 Summicron tomorrow, and reset the machines and make one 90mm Macro the day after. 

All those batches are planned out on a calendar - Jan 1-Jan 9 - make parts for lens A, Jan 10-Jan 18 - make parts for lens B, and so on through the entire catalog of lenses. Any particular lens may only have a production run once a year - which Leica expects will be enough to last for another year.

The size of the batches is based on past experience of how long it will take to sell, say 2000 28mm Elmarits. In the case above, Leica may assume it will take a year to sell 2000 28mms, and therefore they are unlikely to run out.

But sometimes the market doesn't co-operate - some blogger posts that "Man, this 28mm Elmarit-M ASPH is fantastic!", and suddenly the 1-year supply sells out in 9 months (or 6, or 3). If the machine calendar is already booked solid for the next year making other lens parts - it will take a while before the next slot for 28mms comes around again. Result - empty shelves.

2) as to small lenses, I'd note that when Leica lenses were briefly final-assembled (and marked "Made In") Portugal a couple of years back, to avoid US tariffs on optics marked "Made in Germany," the 28mm Elmarit-M ASPH and the basic 50 Summicron-M, both smaller and cheaper lenses, were among those deemed worthy of that treatment. Leica thought selling those was worth the cost of the special engraving/packaging, both to keep the prices low(er) and because they were the core of the M system.

3) In Summer 2022 or 2021, there was a video of an in-person seminar with Leica's Peter Karbe. In which he mentioned that "smaller optical designs" would be (emphasis on future tense) the "5th-generation technical revolution" for Leica. The first four being:

1. Classic optical designs pre-1975
2. APO lenses, beginning in 1975 (180mm APO-Telyt-R f/3.4)
3. ASPH (molded aspheric element) lenses, beginning in 1994 (35mm Summilux-M-ASPH v.1)
4. FLE (floating element) lenses beginning in 2005 (75mm APO-Summicron-M ASPH)

So again, an expressed commitment to compact designs, as technology permits. Which is key, because it is much more difficult to design a great lens in a small volume than it is to build it larger. The large Leica SL lenses generally out-perform their M equivalents significantly (and at a lower price, although there are factors there in addition).

Anyway, the 28mm Elmarit-M ASPH is available at at least two US independent camera retailers, right now, brand new. So rumors of its disappearance are greatly exaggerated.

[lct]

2 minutes ago, adan said:

[...] the 28mm Elmarit-M ASPH is available at at least two US independent camera retailers, right now, brand new. So rumors of its disappearance are greatly exaggerated.

Fact is it is not available on line in France, Germany, Italy and UK.

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, Gregm61 said:

It's easy enough to assemble a lighter, less expensive set of Leica M mount lenses if that's what you want.

A 28mm f2.8 Elmarit, 50mm f2 Summicron (version V) and 90mm f2.8 Elmarit-M threesome (I have all three, and all three 6 bit-coded) is a great little three lens set and all are easily found. The 90mm f2.8 Elmarit-M take a little more hunting if you want one already 6 bit coded for the ease of data being automatically included in image files and all three are just razor sharp.

One can make their M system as slim and efficient or as bulky and versatile as one wants.

Cheap/Cheaper? This system has never been that. It is what it is. If you can't afford what Leica offers, that's why the all-powerful created Cosina....

I have the exact same three lenses, including a 6-bit coded 90mm Elmarit (I shoot film only at the moment so the coding isn't useful to me, but it's there).  The perfect trilogy for my purposes, although I'd like to add a nice 35mm to use with my M2.

[logan2z]

32 minutes ago, adan said:

Anyway, the 28mm Elmarit-M ASPH is available at at least two US independent camera retailers, right now, brand new. So rumors of its disappearance are greatly exaggerated.

FWIW, four of the five US dealers I checked had the lens in stock.

Edited February 12, 2023 by logan2z

[lct]

13 minutes ago, logan2z said:

I have the exact same three lenses, including a 6-bit coded 90mm Elmarit (I shoot film only at the moment so the coding isn't useful to me, but it's there).  The perfect trilogy for my purposes, although I'd like to add a nice 35mm to use with my M2.

Trilogy of the past in the 4 countries above apparently. 

[Mute-on]

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35 minutes ago, lct said:

Problem is the Elmarit 90/2.8 is not sold anymore and the Elmarit 28/2.8 asph seems to be abandoned by Leica. 

 

To say the 28 Elmarit has been abandoned by Leica is pure speculation based on observations of stock levels in certain markets. It is, frankly, unhelpful to imply it has somehow ceased production when you have no proof whatsoever. This is exactly what creates false rumours, and newer Leica users then assume they won’t have an opportunity to ever acquire whatever item is now “ceased production”.  Your preferences for Voigtlander and Zeiss lenses aside, a little more care with projecting conclusions would be helpful. 

[lct]

1 minute ago, Mute-on said:

To say the 28 Elmarit has been abandoned by Leica is pure speculation based on observations of stock levels in certain markets. It is, frankly, unhelpful to imply it has somehow ceased production when you have no proof whatsoever. This is exactly what creates false rumours, and newer Leica users then assume they won’t have an opportunity to ever acquire whatever item is now “ceased production”.  Your preferences for Voigtlander and Zeiss lenses aside, a little more care with projecting conclusions would be helpful. 

I have too many Leica lenses to be concerned but fact is the lens is not available on line in France, Germany, Italy and UK. I have nothing to add to that.

[rramesh]

Leica is a luxury camera company. They still make lenses and cameras the old fashion way, by hand. Their products are good but expensive. There are many individuals that aspire to own one at least. 

These days with modern design and manufacturing techniques, it is easy for many other companies to make lenses at lower cost. Cosina has already shown the way with their Zeiss and Voigtlander lenses and now Chinese manufacturers have started making M lenses. 

As for rangefinder cameras, it’s a niche market and it’s hard for other companies to justify entry. 

Of course, the used market is always there to pick up a bargain from time to time. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by rramesh

[logan2z]

5 hours ago, lct said:

Trilogy of the past in the 4 countries above apparently. 

Hard to say, based on the information on those sites.  Time will tell, but the lens is widely available here in the US at the moment.  

[Kiwimac]

The 35 APO appears to be rarer than hen’s teeth. 

[profschade]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb Hans-Dieter Gülicher:

I think the M System is a very exotic one in the meantime. Mostly old and more experienced boys like me should prefer this typ of camera. I like my handy M 10-R using the new APO-Summicron 35 mm (inspite of my S3). With this combo I take nearly 99 % of my pictures. My Summicrons 28 and 75 mm are staying in there boxes more and more. I assume a lot of other M users are handle their things in a similar way. Based on this prospective market situation it could be concievable that Leica should thin out the M lense line. May be or not that`s the question.

Regards Hans

Well, I would agree with "experienced" people, not necessarily with "old". There are many artsy gen-y people who love the M sytem because it is iconic, because of its design and the retro touch ... Some of them use the analog versions, some use the digital ones.

[UliWer]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb lct:

is not available on line in France, Germany, Italy and UK. I have nothing to add to that.

You better thought twice about adding something:

Probably the biggest seller in Germany:

https://www.meister-camera.com/produkt/leica-elmarit-m-28-28mm-asph/

If other sites say that the lens is on back order you might look into this forum and search for dozens of threads where people complained that the 50m Summilux asph. was available nowhere. The 135mm Apo-Telyt has been declared dead very often in these pages during the last years. When I bought my 90mm Apo-Summicron more than 20 years ago the dealer old me that I was lucky since the lens was hardly available anywhere. I might even quote from newsletters Leitz sent to dealers in the early 50s where they regretted that the 90mm Elmar or the 35mm Summaron weren't available.

Leica has never produced their lenses in unlimited quantities so there have always been times when certain lenses were not available temporarily. 

What does this say about the "strategy" put on discussion here? It seems as if demand for some Leica lenses was higher than the capacity for their production. 

 

 

[profschade]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb Al Brown:

No idea what stores you frequent, I browse most EU Leica stores and the second hand choice is more or less constant. In fact, the cheaper, smaller lenses are much more frequently available than the expensive ones in the used sections of the stores. I partially agree that the slow phasing out of NEW small, compact lenses is slowly happening. But then again, Leica is reintroducing the retro classics like the 35 steel rim and 28/5.6 which are very compact.
Another sad fact: Leica is ACTIVELY pushing the SL system promotion over M system everywhere and it shows.

Indeed, I was talking about NEW lenses. And I do think that the phasig out of small and light Leica glass is an issue. Partially, you are right, the problem begins with the large emphasis out on the SL system which is far less iconic than the M system ...

[250swb]

On 2/11/2023 at 10:19 AM, profschade said:

The more and more they disappear, the less attractive the entire M system becomes (being the core of the Leica brand -- dangerous). Any other opinions on that?

My theory is that people are buying them quicker than Leica can make them. And that should make Leica a more attractive proposition. 

I don't think Leica are trying to make buying a lens difficult, but we know they manufacture then in batches, and those batches don't just get distributed to your local dealer, they go around the world so it doesn't take long for thousands of lenses to disappear into the hands of photographers. I'd be more worried if there was a glut of lenses and dealers were heavily discounting. I don't know how long you've been using a Leica, but I remember the days when discounts and promotions were offered by dealers because they couldn't shift stock.

 

[profschade]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb FrozenInTime:

As well as killing the TL/CL system, which I liked as much as the M system. Causally carrying around two SL bodies is unthinkable due to their weight and volume.

The 'need' for lenses that resolve 60 Mpixels corner-corner drives more complex lenses with expensive precision mechanical alignment on assembly. Knife edge tolerances seem to have been required to miniaturise the 35/2 APO; Voigtländer compromised on size to get their equal.

Keeping M around 24 Mpixels seems a better fit for purpose. For an OVF only camera, not having to refer to a histogram is important; targeting dynamic range on sensor would keep the system relevant.

Where is the M11-S ? it that should cost less than a M11  - maybe that is the problem, as few would feel the need to pay for the high resolution.

Now the discussion becomes very technical, but I am not sure whether it is a problem to use small and less heavy Leica glass with 60 Mpixels. Sure, if you use full magnification, you may see some of the lenses slowly reaching their limits ... but what is the problem? People hardly use magnifications needed for this, even in exibitions ...

[profschade]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb Anbaric:

Is the 28mm Elmarit really gone? On the Leica UK online store, there is both a 'Find a store' button and a 'Shop now' button, which reports 'Currently out of stock - Add your email address below to be notified when the item comes back into stock', implying it's not gone for good. For lenses we know are discontinued, like the Summarits, there is only the 'Find a store' button (for any shops that might still have stock). It would be a pity to lose the 28mm Elmarit, but I'm not sure there's a compelling need for anything slower or lighter than the 35mm and 50mm Summicrons (though cheaper would certainly be welcome!). One gap I do see is at 90mm, where the only current lenses are the APO-Summicron, Summilux and the Thambar. These are all large, heavy and (of course) expensive lenses, and the Thambar is a special purpose design. It's a shame there is no longer a 90mm Elmarit or Summarit, especially as rangefinders are arguably not ideally suited for precise focusing of lenses with this relatively long focal length at large apertures.

Interesting information, so there is still hope for the 28mm Elmarit. Let's cross fingers 🙂 But the general problem is still real, I suppose.

[profschade]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Huss:

Nothing ruins the beautiful handling and view through the vf of an M more than attaching a big, fat lens to it.

It’s why I have no interest in the Noctilux, 28 Summilux etc.

I fully agree, and that is why I was bringing up the topic.

[profschade]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb UliWer:

Did you look at the store's website?

In case you didn't: https://store.leica-camera.com/de/de/leica-elmarit-m-1-2-8/28mm-asph.-schwarz-eloxiert

You may even look at other store's websites: https://www.meister-camera.com/produkt/leica-elmarit-m-28-28mm-asph/

It is true that the line of Summarit lenses was deleted, also all 24mm lenses (the excellent and small 1:3.8 Elmar as well as the big and superfluous Summilux) and the 18mm Super-Elmar. 

If one asks for the reasons, one should listen to customers (or dealers): people didn't buy enough of those lenses. The Summarits were unpopular because they were not so expensive: the Leica brand means expensive or extremely expensive, otherwise it isn't a "real" Leica. 24mm is unpopular, as it is not really wide enough. 18mm is too wide for many and not wide enough for extremists. 

In stead of searching for strategies one might ask for customer's approach. I think Leica's strategy is quite simple: they want to sell their stuff (anybody who produces something for the market follows the same strategy). If customers won't buy enough of what is on offer, it is no surprise that offers won't hold. 

Thanks for the detailed listing of the deleted lenses. This is what I could also remember. And I do also think in terms of the customer. But less in a 'lens-by-lens' manner, which I consider dangerous, but in a 'system approach.' There is a certain point where a system is either not considered 'complete', anymore, or where there is a scarcity of lenses that are light and small and match with the philosophy of the M system. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[profschade]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Gregm61:

It's easy enough to assemble a lighter, less expensive set of Leica M mount lenses if that's what you want.

A 28mm f2.8 Elmarit, 50mm f2 Summicron (version V) and 90mm f2.8 Elmarit-M threesome (I have all three, and all three 6 bit-coded) is a great little three lens set and all are easily found. The 90mm f2.8 Elmarit-M take a little more hunting if you want one already 6 bit coded for the ease of data being automatically included in image files and all three are just razor sharp.

One can make their M system as slim and efficient or as bulky and versatile as one wants.

Cheap/Cheaper? This system has never been that. It is what it is. If you can't afford what Leica offers, that's why the all-powerful created Cosina....

I was purposely not talking about price as the core feature, Leica is expensive. Period. But what you decribe in terms of 'hunting', what I also did with my recently bought 28mm Elmarit (because is is out of stock now for about half a year), should not be necessary, but those lenses should als be available as new Leica glass, I suppose.