SL3 Rumors

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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SInce you're all doing the car analogy thing.

Most of the world buys a used car and not a new one. And those that buy new keep them for 8 years, on average. Not very Leica like, or even Fuji for that matter. Leica, like Ferrari are successful because they stay out of the mainstream market. Wealthy people are mostly recession proof. A Hyundai has a better infotainment system than a Ferrari and they go the same speed on a public road. Ferrari sells the sizzle rather than the sausage and Leica does the same. That's what the SL3 will be aimed at.

The world has moved on. When I supplied cameras to schools, in the 90's they bought a dozen Pentax K1000 bodies and 50mm 1.8's. At my son's high school, the photography course was entirely done with phones and was mixed media. They're not even getting an entry level DSLR, let alone a fully manual Leica at that level anymore. Maybe some of the richer high schools but it's not the norm.

We see photography as a big industry, because we're in it, even as amateurs, but it's a niche. And a shrinking one. There are more photographs taken every day but less photographers than ever before. The average age of club members is skyrocketing and most young talented shooters move to working on YouTube and TikTok because the income is better. Our industry is irrevocably changed. It is what it is.

Gordon

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[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

That's a nice one. Other models are available, of course.

And less nice models too, like the Lenny Kravitz edition.

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[Richardgb]

On 11/12/2023 at 3:48 PM, whowell said:

I’m still not sure that I would consider Leica an out of reach luxury brand.  Phase one fits the Ferrari pricing structure in your world model much more than Leica.  Leica, in the automobile world would be closer (in my mind) to Volvo.  Incredible build quality, simple, and reliable.

And, anecdotal as they may be, my direct observations lead me to the thought process that handing a student a modern camera with lots of bells and whistles like a Panasonic (Fujifilm, Nikon, Canon, etc) may be beneficial to them in terms of exposing them to modern features… but it may actually be detrimental to their photography experience overall.  I agree that all the feature packed cameras are absolutely better for professionals with all sorts of technical needs… and that students should definitely learn how to use these tools over time.

but that comes with time… and experience.

For what it’s worth we have a Panasonic LUMIX S1 as well as a Leica Sl2s…  these are, by all intents and purposes, the same camera… with entirely different user interface design approaches.

If I hand an intern the Panasonic, they spend the afternoon learning how to work the camera while snapping photos.  If I hand them the SL2s, within minutes they are concentrating on learning composition and understanding the exposure triangle.

Regardless of what anyone thinks about the brand in terms of financial status, the art of stopping time and capturing a story in one frame is the quintessential skill that I feel students (under my observation) need to understand… they can learn all the cool tech stuff later..

the cell phone camera revolution stripped away any/all technical barriers for budding photographers… it’s interesting to me that these kids can grab a Leica and instantly start understanding interchangeable lens photography at a fundamental level… 

I also don’t feel it’s bad at all to expose them to these tools early on in their career.  This gives them personal goals to reach for and exposure to different user interface design ecosystems.

One of the great things about endeavors like photography, or music.. is the journey… and exposure to amazing instruments along the way.  I remember the first guitar store I walked into with a pre-war Martin d-18… it didn’t matter that I only had only been playing a year or so… the store owner still let me play it. the music that came out of that guitar still haunts me.

Thirty years later… after performing in countless venues, and delving into multiple musical genres… Do I own one?  Nope… do I still want one?  Yup.

the exposure to that guitar showed me what was possible, and it inspired me.

As the cell phone and ai revolutions dominate the camera landscape, and the future state of our art form is in question… it’s imperative that the quintessential camera brands that our community is built upon survive.  We need Canon to compete with Sony.  We need Nikon to push the wildlife envelope.  We need fujifilm to handslap the medium format world and show us the true power of aps-c… we need hasselblad to do whatever it is that they do… and we need Leica to continue to make cameras that get out of the way and lenses that nobody can afford.

like I said… at work… I hand students a Leica, and they instantly start taking photos… later on, I hand them the fujifilm… canon… Panasonic… and they work their way up to cinema cameras..  

Personally speaking, I hope they go on and use every brand of camera… and have a full life of meaningful photographic experiences.

Exposing them to awesome tools is, in my mind, one of the best things I can do for them.

All that said…. If the SL3 has the Q3 flip screen, I’m still selling my kidney to get it.

'Incredible' build quality? Simple?? Reliable??? Therea re those in this Forum who might beg to differ. One could easily say 'over-designed' and, er, what were those repair turn round times again?

Panasonic vs Leica: Would you rather explain to someone how to adjust something by pressing an obvious button - White balance, ISO, Exposure compensation are the 3 which come directly under the forefinger - or going through a menu system? You don't need to need to presse every button to take picture!

Exposure and composition: Get them a light meter and (as someone else has already said) a manual, preferably large-format camera.

Work their way up to cinema cameras: Aren't you confusing two very different ways of working? And, in any case, the SL Leica cameras also have a video function.

[budjames]

On 11/4/2023 at 3:38 PM, IkarusJohn said:

Depends on the lens.

My Super Elmar 21mm M works fine on the SL2, but the SE 18mm M is unacceptably soft.

Cheer,

Bud James

[whowell]

17 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

SInce you're all doing the car analogy thing.

Most of the world buys a used car and not a new one. And those that buy new keep them for 8 years, on average. Not very Leica like, or even Fuji for that matter. Leica, like Ferrari are successful because they stay out of the mainstream market. Wealthy people are mostly recession proof. A Hyundai has a better infotainment system than a Ferrari and they go the same speed on a public road. Ferrari sells the sizzle rather than the sausage and Leica does the same. That's what the SL3 will be aimed at.

The world has moved on. When I supplied cameras to schools, in the 90's they bought a dozen Pentax K1000 bodies and 50mm 1.8's. At my son's high school, the photography course was entirely done with phones and was mixed media. They're not even getting an entry level DSLR, let alone a fully manual Leica at that level anymore. Maybe some of the richer high schools but it's not the norm.

We see photography as a big industry, because we're in it, even as amateurs, but it's a niche. And a shrinking one. There are more photographs taken every day but less photographers than ever before. The average age of club members is skyrocketing and most young talented shooters move to working on YouTube and TikTok because the income is better. Our industry is irrevocably changed. It is what it is.

Gordon

 

I've been researching camera brand perception for a few years now, and I've come to the same conclusion regarding the state of the industry.  It's interesting that photography was basically birthed out of a decision to "Open Source" the process to fix a photograph.  After a two hundred year line of weekend warrior chemists making photosensitive chemical advancements, in 1839 the French Government gave the Daguerrotype process to the world in a press conference... this democratized photography and gave everyone the same starting point.. this led to a rapid development of advancements from people who improved upon the process in quick succession... companies we're all familiar with were formed.. the woodie... the rangefinder... the slr... fast forward to today... we have, for all intents and purposes, one single mega corporation (Sony) providing the majority of the industry camera sensors (with Canon being the exception).

This is worrisome for those of us who love the art of visual storytelling, through stills or motion images.  Just the thought of one corporation controlling the fate of an entire industry is unsettling at best.  Don't get me wrong.. I'm a huge fan of Sony cameras and their "throw everything into each model" approach.  If you buy a new Sony camera, regardless of where it sits on their product line, you're getting as much new tech as they can stuff in there... That is awesome.  They don't hold back.

but... as the cell phone/mixed media tsunami overtakes our future.. one can't help but think that at some point, that a corporation controlled by board members who might not necessarily be photographers... might look at the numbers for their medium format/full frame/apsc size sensor development research and decide that producing large sensors might not be cost effective in their future strategies... If Sony is the only game in town, and their board members make that call... then they effectively can yank the rug out from underneath all of the remaining camera companies that purchase their sensors for their cameras (Fujifilm, Leica, Panasonic, Nikon, Phase One, Sigma, etc...)
 

 

[whowell]

17 hours ago, Richardgb said:

'Incredible' build quality? Simple?? Reliable??? Therea re those in this Forum who might beg to differ. One could easily say 'over-designed' and, er, what were those repair turn round times again?

Panasonic vs Leica: Would you rather explain to someone how to adjust something by pressing an obvious button - White balance, ISO, Exposure compensation are the 3 which come directly under the forefinger - or going through a menu system? You don't need to need to presse every button to take picture!

Exposure and composition: Get them a light meter and (as someone else has already said) a manual, preferably large-format camera.

Work their way up to cinema cameras: Aren't you confusing two very different ways of working? And, in any case, the SL Leica cameras also have a video function.

Regarding my observations of incredible build quality are based on the iiif and leicaflex I've been shooting for years.  The iiif was built in the 1940's, both cameras are built like tanks, and have functioned flawlessly.  I realize the leicaflex was a Minolta collaboration, but it's still a pretty amazing slr... I shoot a canon f1 as well, and hb 500c for reference.. so I'm not necessarily a Leica-file.. even though my comments have been very pro-leica.   I have no experience with their M-line of cameras, although I do want one... and all of my digital Leica experience has been on the Sl2s and CL for the past few years.  Luckily, those haven't broken... and now that you mentioned it, I wonder how those products perform longevity wise.... and it's a real concern that one should take into account, if the long repair turn around times are the norm.

While I understand your point about the Panasonic button layout vs. Leica, in practice... when I hand the Panasonic to a high school student, it's overwhelming to them.  The size of the body... the flip out screen... the dials and buttons... the distracting AI autofocus boxes... When I hand them the leica Sl2s, they're photographing within minutes.  Keeper photos... ones that tell a story.  These are real world observations based on personal experience.  

Regarding your point about a light meter and large format camera... yes... if I'm teaching a university level photography course and the kids have a semester to learn things.. but... understanding the impact of, what I like to call, "feature fear" is a real concern of mine with interns.  Building confidence in empowering them to take photographs we can use is an important aspect of what I do.  They are not with me to understand how to think like Ansel Adams... they're with me to understand how to gather high impact media quickly.

Regarding cinema cameras, it's not confusing different ways of working at all.  Composition, depth of field, shutter speed/angle, iso, wb, camera placement etc... all of that information translates over to the cinematic domain.  Those cameras are super intimidating to start off on, and by the time they've stepped through different stills cameras, they're used to understanding the different interfaces... and what each of features is for... it's a somewhat logical leap to video at that point.  I don't have them gather video on the stills cameras, primarily because you're right... that is a totally different mindset.. 

I personally find that starting people off on a simple camera interface is the best way to build their photography confidence, then the feature education follows with more "professional" models.

 

 

[whowell]

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22 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Volvos are not sold in boutiques in luxury malls, next to Prada and Hermes, and don’t have collaborations with other luxury and lifestyle brands like e.g. the 500€ Leica Zegna camera strap. 

This is interesting.  I've been to luxury malls before and there are multiple different vendors that I wouldn't consider luxury occupying those spaces... like Apple, Starbucks, and Chick-Fil-a.  The only Leica store I've personally been to is in DC, and it was rather unassuming in it's presence and location.. so I can't argue that Leica appeals to those looking for lifestyle products... I'm a self professed history buff, so Leica squarely lives in the "quintessential camera company" category for me.... as does Canon, Nikon, Fujifilm, Hasselblad, Kodak.. etc...

On the opposite side of that coin, one can purchase any Leica model from Walmart.... I can't say the same about ALPA or Phase One.  Those, in my mind, are the definition of luxury.

I guess, what I'm saying is that I respect everyones opinions here... but given the history of the company, I just don't look at Leica as a luxury company... They hand make cameras and lenses which logically means they have a high baseline production cost, so they collaborate with other companies that make hand made things (that are far less complicated to produce) to sell products at obviously high markups.  That's the downside to capitalism... gotta make money to stay in business.

The recent Leica watches are interesting... I know watch collectors, and Leica's prices don't seem to even begin to approach some of the "high end" watch companies these collectors talk about.  I know nothing about handmade watch making, other than it impresses the hell out of me... but.. I don't own a watch.. my phone keeps time good enough.

I have a vintage leitz/leica microscope at work.  The researchers I work with say current Leica microscopes are ok/meh, but they covet Olympus microscopes and consider that brand luxury in that market... I like Olympus cameras, but.. honestly.. it blew my mind when they told me that.

[Planetwide]

1 hour ago, whowell said:

when I hand the Panasonic to a high school student, it's overwhelming to them.  The size of the body... the flip out screen... the dials and buttons... the distracting AI autofocus boxes...

If that's the case, then they need some additional instruction. The buttons are labelled, and it's obvious what they are for. Additionally, all of those functions can be accessed via a menu system that is also very good. While I agree that the Leica menu system is probably one of the best, the layout of the Panasonic S series is typical of a pro camera.

[BernardC]

29 minutes ago, whowell said:

This is interesting.  I've been to luxury malls before and there are multiple different vendors that I wouldn't consider luxury occupying those spaces... like Apple, Starbucks, and Chick-Fil-a.  The only Leica store I've personally been to is in DC, and it was rather unassuming in it's presence and location.. so I can't argue that Leica appeals to those looking for lifestyle products...

I agree, but I also find the "luxury" conversation fascinating from a psychological point of view. It's funny that every such discussion will eventually devolve to an automotive analogy!

I think that Leica occupies a space nearer to Le Creuset or Miele in the marketplace: mid-high-end with a promise of extra durability and less UX complication. Just like Leica, you can pay several times more if your intention is to impress your peers. You can also pay less for a product that looks similar, albeit with a worse UX and lower durability. I realize that's a lost cause; people just don't covet their neighbour's oven in the same way that they covet their neighbour's European executive-class saloon!

[Stuart Richardson]

With respect to everyone here, if you cannot consider a company whose signature 35mm camera is at a minimum 12,000 dollars with a lens a luxury company you are losing the forest for the trees. Their main sales points are boutiques, they sell silk and leather straps, allow you to replace the camera leather with exotic colors and textures and engravings, also sell special editions with different cosmetics for many times more money and have a history of literally making cameras out of gold for royal families around the world. 
Do they make good cameras? Absolutely. Can they be used for everyday work? Of course. They are still a company that is aimed squarely at the luxury market. Far more so than Phase One for example. They are super expensive, but are directed at commercial and institutional clients. They don’t tend to have a Royal Danish Wedding edition, even though they are a Danish company….

Edited November 14, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[whowell]

2 hours ago, Planetwide said:

If that's the case, then they need some additional instruction. The buttons are labelled, and it's obvious what they are for. Additionally, all of those functions can be accessed via a menu system that is also very good. While I agree that the Leica menu system is probably one of the best, the layout of the Panasonic S series is typical of a pro camera.

I agree.  Which is why we have a Panasonic S1.  Honestly...  I have to assume these kids don't necessarily "know" anything real about photography.  A few of the college interns have come in with a lot of experience under their belts, and are quickly at home with any camera.  Most of the high school age kids seem to know they like taking photos from cell phone/social media exposure, but don't know much more than they instinctively understand good composition.  So I hand them the super simple camera to use (with a manual lens) to learn the exposure triangle.. Iso, aperture, and shutter speed... that's it..  check their work as the first shoot goes along, offer constructive criticism about depth of field/composition etc..... show them post production... how we process the images... then.. within a few sessions, hand them a camera like the fujifilm x-t3 or the Panasonic and go from there.

I don't have alot of time with some of these kids, so assessing where they are in terms of understanding photography is done on the fly... it's kind of humorous that the bourgeois-est camera we have is the one I hand the kids with little to no experience.  It's simple enough for me to assess their abilities and knowledge-base, while allowing them to focus on the fundamentals.

can I teach them on a canon rebel?  yes... and have for years... but... the irony of the leica UI design is that it serves as an invaluable assessment tool... at least in this particular use case.  I am a bit worried now about the longevity of the digital leicas due to someone else's comments on the subject. 

[whowell]

32 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

With respect to everyone here, if you cannot consider a company whose signature 35mm camera is at a minimum 12,000 dollars with a lens a luxury company you are losing the forest for the trees. Their main sales points are boutiques, they sell silk and leather straps, allow you to replace the camera leather with exotic colors and textures and engravings, also sell special editions with different cosmetics for many times more money and have a history of literally making cameras out of gold for royal families around the world. 
Do they make good cameras? Absolutely. Can they be used for everyday work? Of course. They are still a company that is aimed squarely at the luxury market. Far more so than Phase One for example. They are super expensive, but are directed at commercial and institutional clients. They don’t tend to have a Royal Danish Wedding edition, even though they are a Danish company….

Again, I view things entirely from a historical context... and I'm not here to argue about anything really... but just because I don't share the same world view doesn't necessarily mean that I'm losing the forest through the trees.

Leica basically invented the 35mm camera.. They are one of the oldest camera companies on Earth... They continue to manufacture mechanically coupled cameras and lenses that are entirely handmade.  I personally don't think they're unreasonably priced, for what they are...  with that being said...  I personally cannot afford to purchase any M camera nor their corresponding lenses.

I feel that their company longevity is what allows them to produce extremely high end (all gold) cameras for royalty... the company has a solid (gold) reputation.

Phase One was founded in the 90's so they're still trying to establish longevity in the market.  Leica was founded in the 1860's, and their cameras have been shot by people from every culture around the world.  The word Leica is integrated into the global lexicon, and generations associate that with the art of photography itself.  that's all quickly changing now thanks to smart phones and tictok, but... historically speaking... to me.. they're much more than just an expensive camera manufacturer.

It probably all boils down to my definition of luxury is different... I just feel Leica has done a great job of producing cameras that are easy to shoot... and next year I'm going to personally get a SL3 if it has the q3 flippy screen (it's almost a given that it'll have the m11/q3 sensor).  If it doesn't have the flippy screen... I'll probably get a Sony A series camera and invest in their lenses for my personal photography business.  I have alot of R glass from shooting the leicaflex, so it'd be cool to stick with Leica for my digital camera.

Edited November 14, 2023 by whowell

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Well, if we're going to look at things historically.....

Leica Cameras has nearly gone bankrupt, at least twice. For a couple of decades it was an anchor around the neck of Leica and it was jettisoned at a basically give away price with the main company thinking it would be gone within a year or two. This was the Leica that was trying to compete in a camera market. That's what Leica Camera was. Broke and making bad decisions one after the other. If it were not for Mr Kaufman re branding Leica, it would be gone.

The current owners have absolutely rebranded Leica as a luxury brand and firmly planted it into the luxury market. As stated above the special editions and ala carte menu for M cameras pretty much confirms this. Try and get custom factory engraving for your Sony and see what happens. Leica is in the less is more luxury end, specialising in industrial design and not changing the halo product. Interestingly, Porsche is remarkably similar. Nearly broke. Re-inventing itself and not changing the look of their halo product. The last to make a manual super car in a world of flappy paddles. The same has happened in the watch industry. Swiss watches were decimated in the 80's in the quartz revolution. Now even Swatch is chasing the collectors market. Other camera companies have tried this. Notably Nikon. They've all failed. They make instruments. Hence they fight the specification wars with Canon and Sony. Leica re-release a three year old camera in a new colour and every one goes nuts about how beautiful it is. Nothing wrong with this. Leica is strong and stable.

Leica doesn't penetrate or care about the professional market, beyond it's ambassadors. They have no functional pro service network. They put their prices up EVERY year to increase profit and protect the used market from price collapse. Look at other luxury brands and that also what you'll see. It's how luxury brands work. Hasselblad is seemingly following a similar path. But in a smaller pool.

It matters little what Leica did before the current owners, historically. Because it was a different company, with different owners and with a different philosophy. In 1950 Leica may have been just a camera company. Not today.

Gordon

[whowell]

28 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Well, if we're going to look at things historically.....

Leica Cameras has nearly gone bankrupt, at least twice. For a couple of decades it was an anchor around the neck of Leica and it was jettisoned at a basically give away price with the main company thinking it would be gone within a year or two. This was the Leica that was trying to compete in a camera market. That's what Leica Camera was. Broke and making bad decisions one after the other. If it were not for Mr Kaufman re branding Leica, it would be gone.

The current owners have absolutely rebranded Leica as a luxury brand and firmly planted it into the luxury market. As stated above the special editions and ala carte menu for M cameras pretty much confirms this. Try and get custom factory engraving for your Sony and see what happens. Leica is in the less is more luxury end, specialising in industrial design and not changing the halo product. Interestingly, Porsche is remarkably similar. Nearly broke. Re-inventing itself and not changing the look of their halo product. The last to make a manual super car in a world of flappy paddles. The same has happened in the watch industry. Swiss watches were decimated in the 80's in the quartz revolution. Now even Swatch is chasing the collectors market. Other camera companies have tried this. Notably Nikon. They've all failed. They make instruments. Hence they fight the specification wars with Canon and Sony. Leica re-release a three year old camera in a new colour and every one goes nuts about how beautiful it is. Nothing wrong with this. Leica is strong and stable.

Leica doesn't penetrate or care about the professional market, beyond it's ambassadors. They have no functional pro service network. They put their prices up EVERY year to increase profit and protect the used market from price collapse. Look at other luxury brands and that also what you'll see. It's how luxury brands work. Hasselblad is seemingly following a similar path. But in a smaller pool.

It matters little what Leica did before the current owners, historically. Because it was a different company, with different owners and with a different philosophy. In 1950 Leica may have been just a camera company. Not today.

Gordon

Thank you for that explanation Gordon.  Was that in the R camera years? The leicaflex is an awesome slr, but the R cameras seemed plastic-y at best.  I assume they were all Minolta (?) designs?  The R lenses, for the most part, seem to punch above their weight “price wise”.

[Richardgb]

1 hour ago, whowell said:

Again, I view things entirely from a historical context... and I'm not here to argue about anything really... but just because I don't share the same world view doesn't necessarily mean that I'm losing the forest through the trees.

Leica basically invented the 35mm camera.. They are one of the oldest camera companies on Earth... They continue to manufacture mechanically coupled cameras and lenses that are entirely handmade.  I personally don't think they're unreasonably priced, for what they are...  with that being said...  I personally cannot afford to purchase any M camera nor their corresponding lenses.

I feel that their company longevity is what allows them to produce extremely high end (all gold) cameras for royalty... the company has a solid (gold) reputation.

Phase One was founded in the 90's so they're still trying to establish longevity in the market.  Leica was founded in the 1860's, and their cameras have been shot by people from every culture around the world.  The word Leica is integrated into the global lexicon, and generations associate that with the art of photography itself.  that's all quickly changing now thanks to smart phones and tictok, but... historically speaking... to me.. they're much more than just an expensive camera manufacturer.

It probably all boils down to my definition of luxury is different... I just feel Leica has done a great job of producing cameras that are easy to shoot... and next year I'm going to personally get a SL3 if it has the q3 flippy screen (it's almost a given that it'll have the m11/q3 sensor).  If it doesn't have the flippy screen... I'll probably get a Sony A series camera and invest in their lenses for my personal photography business.  I have alot of R glass from shooting the leicaflex, so it'd be cool to stick with Leica for my digital camera.

Yes, they did, and they milk their history at every opportunity, just as, in a different sphere, Liverpool does The Beatles (who nowadays few under 70 years old will ever have seen performing live. But this is not to denigrate the Fab Four, although it's the songs and music of 2 of them in particular which gets remebered).

As for today's Leica, I suggest you look at it in the same way as the stock market: past performance is no indicator of future performance. The mechanical cameras which you revere are an entirely different kettle of fish to the digital ones which dominate today.

[whowell]

51 minutes ago, Richardgb said:

Yes, they did, and they milk their history at every opportunity, just as, in a different sphere, Liverpool does The Beatles (who nowadays few under 70 years old will ever have seen performing live. But this is not to denigrate the Fab Four, although it's the songs and music of 2 of them in particular which gets remebered).

As for today's Leica, I suggest you look at it in the same way as the stock market: past performance is no indicator of future performance. The mechanical cameras which you revere are an entirely different kettle of fish to the digital ones which dominate today.

Point taken.  It makes me think of something Chris Nichols said on a Dptvreview YouTube vid of the Leica cl “let’s face it, Leica’s are never a good deal for the money”… which… may very well be the case.

 

[SrMi]

I have never seen Leica cameras as a luxury brand, probably because I can afford their cameras.

I buy Leica cameras because of their uniqueness as photographic tools. If Nikon or Sony would produce cameras like Leica, I may not own any Leica (except for old film cameras).

Same goes for Hasselblads.

[frame-it]

17 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I have never seen Leica cameras as a luxury brand, probably because I can afford their cameras.

yeah, but in a few countries in Asia, they're like a high end fashion brand, at times a bit aloof and snobbish & in some places they actually increase prices when other regions' Leica stores are reducing them or giving deals.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[frame-it]

2 hours ago, whowell said:

Point taken.  It makes me think of something Chris Nichols said on a Dptvreview YouTube vid of the Leica cl “let’s face it, Leica’s are never a good deal for the money”… which… may very well be the case.

 

so if the S is killed or delayed indefinitely:

that leaves Leica with a 60mp multi-res M, and a 60mp multi-res SL series

OR

the SL3 could be 120/80/47mp with a cheaper adapter for S lenses. [for the humans who think sensor surface area makes zero difference (FF vs MF) ;)]

 

 

[Simone_DF]

21 hours ago, whowell said:

This is interesting.  I've been to luxury malls before and there are multiple different vendors that I wouldn't consider luxury occupying those spaces... like Apple, Starbucks, and Chick-Fil-a.  The only Leica store I've personally been to is in DC, and it was rather unassuming in it's presence and location.. so I can't argue that Leica appeals to those looking for lifestyle products... I'm a self professed history buff, so Leica squarely lives in the "quintessential camera company" category for me.... as does Canon, Nikon, Fujifilm, Hasselblad, Kodak.. etc...

On the opposite side of that coin, one can purchase any Leica model from Walmart.... I can't say the same about ALPA or Phase One.  Those, in my mind, are the definition of luxury.

I guess, what I'm saying is that I respect everyones opinions here... but given the history of the company, I just don't look at Leica as a luxury company... 

You can get food and a Starbucks in a luxury mall because even rich people still want a coffee every now and then and, at least to my knowledge, there's no luxury coffee brand around (yet).

Anyway, it's Leica themselves that likes to position its brand as luxury / lifestyle, they even have a dedicated section on their official Amsterdam website. Lately it looks like they run out of products, they had the various overpriced Zegna items, a 750€ fountain pen and they were selling these "0.95" t shirts for 90€, but anyway the description is more than enough:

https://www.leicastoreamsterdam.nl/lifestyle/

"Lifestyle
Living a certain lifestyle is in many aspects a very personal thing. Making the Leica brand part of yours can be achieved in various ways. Wether you opt for Leica branded accessoires from the Leica Boutique, the exclusive 0.95 Collection or certain apparel, the choice is yours and yours only. In many ways the lifestyle section offers a selection of exclusive products that uncompromisingly reflect and carry forward the unique Leica brand personality, that may suite your lifestyle as well."