SL3 Rumors

[Louis]

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19 hours ago, goodbokeh said:

Louis, I would guess yes to all three of your questions. I don't think the SL3 size will be as small as the Lumix S5 II however. For one thing because of the imbalanced nature that would impart with many of the current larger SL lenses.

When CL was discontinued, a contact at Leica AG told me that Leica decided to end the APS-C system but instead, it is working on a camera smaller than SL with L Mount that would be out by 2024!

According to this information, a new camera - whether it is called SL3 or else - should be introduced in the coming months. As Q3 was a full frame with 60 MP and an articulated screen, i believe it is safe to think the same features would be applied to this “new” camera.

[LBJ2]

14 minutes ago, Louis said:

When CL was discontinued, a contact at Leica AG told me that Leica decided to end the APS-C system but instead, it is working on a camera smaller than SL with L Mount that would be out by 2024!

According to this information, a new camera - whether it is called SL3 or else - should be introduced in the coming months. As Q3 was a full frame with 60 MP and an articulated screen, i believe it is safe to think the same features would be applied to this “new” camera.

Interesting! 

Edited August 23, 2023 by LBJ2

[Simone_DF]

18 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

Just curious. What do you consider as Panasonic's high end FF mirrorless cameras? 

The Full Frame mirrorless camera market IMO is already more than over-supplied and many brands selling to a relatively small market. OTOH, we can never have enough lens options IMO. So I am totally fine with not too many cameras too frequently and let's see some more effort on the lenses--particularly more new SL APO lenses. The lack of appearance of the SL APO 21 for so long is concerning--if it weren't Leica who some might say are known for taking their time...even a very long time it seems. 

None. The S1R is just a mid-range camera but geared toward landscape / studio with a high megapixel sensor. It's in the same ballpark of cameras like the A7RIV, Z7 or the R5.

As for the 21mm APO, perhaps these lenses don't sell as much as Leica had hoped, hence the delay. Or perhaps there was some technical difficulty. Probably a mix of both.  

[Simone_DF]

21 minutes ago, Louis said:

When CL was discontinued, a contact at Leica AG told me that Leica decided to end the APS-C system but instead, it is working on a camera smaller than SL with L Mount that would be out by 2024!

Perhaps a SL3-S modelled after the S5II

[Simone_DF]

20 hours ago, goodbokeh said:

Louis, I would guess yes to all three of your questions. I don't think the SL3 size will be as small as the Lumix S5 II however. For one thing because of the imbalanced nature that would impart with many of the current larger SL lenses.

So, because of an original marketing mistake ("people want big, chunky cameras and heavy lenses"), we're stuck with big bodies? I don't think that's the case. We have already seen Panasonic revert course in regards to PDAF, so I wouldn't be surprised.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Simone_DF

[BernardC]

54 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Sony A1, Nikon Z9 and Canon R3 are high end.

Those are high-end sports cameras. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Leica or Panasonic to release one of those. Canon and Nikon have had the press market locked-up since the 1970s. Sony are spending huge marketing dosh to establish their name, but long-term success isn't guaranteed. Ask Minolta, Pentax, Olympus, etc.!

Press budgets aren't what they used to be, so the market isn't necessarily viable anyway. The real growth has been in video, and in "high resolution" (for want of a better term). Leica, Panasonic and Sigma are strong in both segments. The SL2 and S1r are arguably the only 35mm cameras to compete with Fuji and Hasselblad's medium format cameras, and I've seen great work done with the fp-l. On the video side, Canon lost its early lead, and Sony lost its later lead (by ignoring demand for 10-bit and better bodies). You can't get much better than an S1H/BS1H, S5iix, or fp right now, and the SL2-S is arguably just as good (albeit more expensive).

No need to mention other high-end cameras like the M, PhaseOne, Alpa, Arri, etc. They don't have mass-market appeal.

[frankchn]

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13 hours ago, BernardC said:

Those are high-end sports cameras. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Leica or Panasonic to release one of those. Canon and Nikon have had the press market locked-up since the 1970s. Sony are spending huge marketing dosh to establish their name, but long-term success isn't guaranteed. Ask Minolta, Pentax, Olympus, etc.!

Press budgets aren't what they used to be, so the market isn't necessarily viable anyway. The real growth has been in video, and in "high resolution" (for want of a better term). Leica, Panasonic and Sigma are strong in both segments. The SL2 and S1r are arguably the only 35mm cameras to compete with Fuji and Hasselblad's medium format cameras, and I've seen great work done with the fp-l. On the video side, Canon lost its early lead, and Sony lost its later lead (by ignoring demand for 10-bit and better bodies). You can't get much better than an S1H/BS1H, S5iix, or fp right now, and the SL2-S is arguably just as good (albeit more expensive).

No need to mention other high-end cameras like the M, PhaseOne, Alpa, Arri, etc. They don't have mass-market appeal.

The A1 and Z9 are high-end "do everything" cameras. Those are 45 (Z9) or 50 (A1) megapixel cameras (similar to the SL2), with more DR than the SL2, that can also shoot 20 or 30 fps on the superteles with full AE/AF, and with AF that is significantly better than Panasonic / Leica AF. Also, I don't think the S1R and the SL2 are any closer to a competitor to the GFX100 and X2D cameras than the Sony A7R5 is, and often you just can't beat sensor size.

For what it's worth, I agree that the R3 is a sports/photojournalist camera.

Edited August 24, 2023 by frankchn

[Stuart Richardson]

The Sony was released in January 2021 and the Nikon in December 2021. The Panasonic S1R was in March 2019...at the time it was the highest end mirrorless camera available, and offered quite a bit over Sony and Nikon's offerings. A much better viewfinder, higher megapixels (the A7RIV would not be out for a few months), as well as better video specs, and just overall more robust build and professional handling. I am not sure what a "high end" camera actually is, but when I picked up a Panasonic S1 for the first time, I was like, ah, perfect...now I can sell my A7S and A7Rii. I did so and have been a lot happier with the camera since then. The only modern digital cameras that I have used that seem to be a notable notch above in terms of construction are the Leica cameras. Maybe the Hasselblad, but when I tried that I just could not get past how poor the shutter delay was (I know they fixed it), and at the time that did not make me inclined to think it was a professional camera. The GFX feels pretty close to the S1 series to me...obviously the bigger sensor is going to outdo it for raw image quality.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[BernardC]

7 hours ago, frankchn said:

The A1 and Z9 are high-end "do everything" cameras. Those are 45 (Z9) or 50 (A1) megapixel cameras (similar to the SL2), with more DR than the SL2, that can also shoot 20 or 30 fps on the superteles with full AE/AF, and with AF that is significantly better than Panasonic / Leica AF. Also, I don't think the S1R and the SL2 are any closer to a competitor to the GFX100 and X2D cameras than the Sony A7R5 is, and often you just can't beat sensor size.

The Z9 weighs twice as much as the a1 or SL, so it's hardly an all-purpose camera. It's a specialized tool for professionals, or those who choose to dress like professionals.

I'm not sure why some people are convinced that the Nikon and Sony have better DR than the SL2. The S1r still has the highest-rated full-frame sensor on DxO. CineD tests show that the a1 and Z9 have average DR (less than Panasonic and Leica cameras). Mind you, a difference of less than a stop probably doesn't matter, even when it favours a camera that I own.

What is the conclusion? Do you want an a1 to shoot more fps with lower quality, or an SL2 at a similar price to shoot only 20 fps with higher quality? Do you want the fastest AF or the sharpest multishot? To me it's a clear choice: speed vs. accuracy. Pick the one that suits your style of photography. If you need super-telephotos, pick the Canon or Nikon that feels best in your hands. There's no reason to cherry-pick specifications in order to find a "winner," they all have areas where they excel, and they are all high-quality, high-end cameras; as you would expect for the price.

[frankchn]

I am using photons-to-photos PDR data and they show a higher reading for Z9 and A1 compared to the SL2. I agree that the differences are small, small enough to be negligble in the grand scheme of things.

I am sure Leica would come out with something special for the SL3, but the larger point is that the competition in this space is fierce, both from other manufacturers and from manufacturers within the L-mount alliance. Leica knows this too, and they know that the SL2 is an aging product. This is why they are running the SL2 + lens bundle deals right now.

[BernardC]

23 minutes ago, frankchn said:

am using photons-to-photos PDR data and they show a higher reading for Z9 and A1 compared to the SL2. I agree that the differences are small, small enough to be negligble in the grand scheme of things.

The issue with PtP is that it's crowd-sourced home testing. I have enough issues matching two monitors at home (to be fair, only one is a high-quality monitor), so I don't trust tests done on different monitors, in different rooms, different locations, different ambient temperature, different lenses, etc. At least the two that I mentioned use a consistent process in a calibrated lab environment.

I expect that the SL3 will be a significant step forward. I don't think that Leica will use the same old 60MP sensor from the fp-l, a7r4, a7r5.

I also don't read too much into current bundle offers. Leica always have special offers, as does every other brand. What it tells me is that it makes commercial sense to offer a bundle;  new customers need at-least one lens. The S5iiX is only available in bundles in my market, and it's a new product. That's unfortunate in my case because I already have their excellent 20-60 kit lens.

[frankchn]

44 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The issue with PtP is that it's crowd-sourced home testing. I have enough issues matching two monitors at home (to be fair, only one is a high-quality monitor), so I don't trust tests done on different monitors, in different rooms, different locations, different ambient temperature, different lenses, etc. At least the two that I mentioned use a consistent process in a calibrated lab environment.

I expect that the SL3 will be a significant step forward. I don't think that Leica will use the same old 60MP sensor from the fp-l, a7r4, a7r5.

I also don't read too much into current bundle offers. Leica always have special offers, as does every other brand. What it tells me is that it makes commercial sense to offer a bundle;  new customers need at-least one lens. The S5iiX is only available in bundles in my market, and it's a new product. That's unfortunate in my case because I already have their excellent 20-60 kit lens.

I suspect it will be variant of the 60mp sensor -- it only makes sense since M11 and Q3 both use that and it would help with costs if they are all on the same digital platform. In fact, I think it will be the 60 MP sensor and the Maestro IV from the Q3. Innovations will probably come from better PDAF than the Q3 and other bits instead of the sensor itself.

Re: bundles -- it might be true, but I don't see Leica offering bundles with the M cameras recently  I would like to save on an M Summicron or Summilux sometime haha. I think the last time they did was for the M262 8 or 9 years ago with some Summarit f/2.4s.

Edited August 24, 2023 by frankchn

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

The issue with PtP is that it's crowd-sourced home testing. I have enough issues matching two monitors at home (to be fair, only one is a high-quality monitor), so I don't trust tests done on different monitors, in different rooms, different locations, different ambient temperature, different lenses, etc. At least the two that I mentioned use a consistent process in a calibrated lab environment.

Bill Claff has evaluated his tests' reproducibility by getting three samples from three different people. The results obtained were virtually identical. The method used to compute PDR and other data does not rely on a calibrated environment. There are valid critiques about PDR, but the reproducibility of results is not one of them.

 

[trickness]

Dear God this thread has gotten tedious

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, frankchn said:

I suspect it will be variant of the 60mp sensor -- it only makes sense since M11 and Q3 both use that and it would help with costs if they are all on the same digital platform. In fact, I think it will be the 60 MP sensor and the Maestro IV from the Q3.

I hope not. I’d love to get more megapixels but I’ll skip the SL3 and stick to the SL2-S in that case. The slow readout time makes it a no-go for me. 

[LBJ2]

1 minute ago, Simone_DF said:

I hope not. I’d love to get more megapixels but I’ll skip the SL3 and stick to the SL2-S in that case. The slow readout time makes it a no-go for me. 

I predict you will be sticking with the SL2-S 😎 if the Q3 is any indication...which I think it is. The S1R II or whatever Panasonic's next high resolution full frame mirrorless model turns out to be is probably another tell. 

On a side note, I don't think we've seen the last of this sensor:

IMX455ALK-K (Mono) 
IMX455AQK-K (RGB) 

https://www.phase1vision.com/sensors/sony-sensors/starvis/imx455

[Simone_DF]

23 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

I predict you will be sticking with the SL2-S 😎 if the Q3 is any indication...which I think it is. The S1R II or whatever Panasonic's next high resolution full frame mirrorless model turns out to be is probably another tell. 

On a side note, I don't think we've seen the last of this sensor:

IMX455ALK-K (Mono) 
IMX455AQK-K (RGB) 

https://www.phase1vision.com/sensors/sony-sensors/starvis/imx455

Not a big deal. I’ll either wait for a SL3-S or, most likely, get a S5II and call it a day. 

[LBJ2]

2 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Not a big deal. I’ll either wait for a SL3-S or, most likely, get a S5II and call it a day. 

We are all, maybe rightfully so, expecting the next gen cycle of the S1H, SL2, SL2-s etc. Who knows. Maybe a surprise or two in 2024. E.g., The SL2-s was a surprise for me. And who knows what Panasonic might be planning particularly since they are not so quietly pushing video as a priority. 

[IkarusJohn]

5 hours ago, trickness said:

Dear God this thread has gotten tedious

The M11 freeze thread is there for light relief …

There was a time when the forum was informative and entertaining.  Looking back to 2010, when I got my M9 and was new to this forum, so many of the voices that were worth listening to have faded away.

Another treasured member here responded to my recent despair over having two cameras and two lenses at Wetzlar and my disillusionment with where the M system is heading with the M11.  He said, hold out something might happen, and wait for the SL3.  Well, I’m not so sure.  I have all my L mount gear on the dining table for photographing and selling.  Why am I not waiting?

Well, how does this sound:

• IBIS, giving 7 stops of stabilisation
• built in 1TB of memory, obviating the need for card storage
• USB-C charging and transfer
• WiFi
• BSI sensor
• PDAF
• Base ISO of 64
• 15 stops of dynamic range
• 16-bit colour depth

All in the best body with a user friendly UI and menu system which matches or betters Leica’s.  What’s not to like?  

I’m keeping my M system as I like what I have, and the future will do what the future does.

Edited August 24, 2023 by IkarusJohn

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[Jeff S]

30 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

 What’s not to like?  

 

In the US, the missing pieces for me are a robust dealer network and third party service support. That’s enough to keep me away, despite insurance protection, at least as long as Leica remains a viable product alternative. Hasselblad otherwise has a fine system (if it survives). Both companies lack a robust and reliable US service structure, but at least there are many Leica backup resources here, both sales and service, in the event of problems.  Maybe different elsewhere.

Jeff

Edited August 24, 2023 by Jeff S