35mm - Zeiss C-Biogon f2.8 vs Color Skopar f2.5

[Ouroboros]

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6 minutes ago, 28framelines said:

Thank you! I think my main concern with the 40mm is actually the knob. Apparently it unscrews and can fall off? I saw it on a YouTube video but not sure how true that is. Do you find that?

No problems at all with mine.

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[Dennis]

I'm lucky enough to own and use five different 35mm. The sharpest is the Biogon. But It's probably the one I use the less.

Pro: impressive 3d pop even at 2.8, almost unbeatable regarding flare resistance. Small and light. Good 43mm filter thread: It uses the same lens hood as my CV 35/1.4 II MC
Cons: 1/3 aperture stops... why? 😅 I dislike the small focus knob (I prefer the classic focus tab or nothing). Strong vignette wide open. A bit ugly (In my taste, I prefer Leica, of course, and Voigtlander)
.
No experience with the Color Skopar. I just know it's a good lens.
. 
If you like small and light lenses, I will choose the Nokton instead. At f4 is super sharp, and f8 you can't tell which is which. Two lenses in one, because wide open it has a lot of character. But stopped down, it's modern and sharp. Super recommended.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Dennis

[hdmesa]

On 1/30/2023 at 8:46 PM, 28framelines said:

... in that I’d love to get the reissue SR at some point (I hate the whole filter situation that we’ve been talking about in the thread but ultimately I love the look it produces). So optical perfection is not a must. I just don’t like distortion, and I like a bit of character. The SR has virtually no distortion, just like my 28 Elmarit. That’s more important than sharpness in my eyes.

You may want to consider the LLL 35mm f/2 8-Element. Like the Steel Rim it's a remake, but it goes further by sourcing the original lanthanide and lead infused raw glass they have sourced from old stocks. It doesn't glow a lot like the Steel Rim, but it does have some glow at f/2, and it does have character. It's sharp at f/2 for portrait distance shooting, and it's sharp for all but the tiniest bit of the far corners at infinity at f/8. Distortion is very low. Lens is very small. It takes 39mm filters, and unlike the Steel Rim reissue, the filters from LLL work with their IROOA remake hoods.

For US buyers they're cheapest here, plus they have great return service if you need to exchange: https://www.popflash.com/light-lens-lab/

LLL online shop: https://lightlenslab.myshopify.com/products/light-lens-lab-35mm-f2-eight-element

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by hdmesa

[Tessar.]

Currently I own the Skopar (VM II) and the Nokton Classic MC II.  I used to own the Summarit and the C-Biogon.  (and f/2 Biogon/Summicron ASPH/Summilux V2/M-Hexanon etc.)

All are great lenses.  What I like about the Skopar is the size and focus tab, although as mentioned earlier in the thread, the aperture ring is a bit fiddly and easy to change setting.  The Nokton probably has more wow factor because it's faster, but even though it's small, it's still bigger and heavier than the Skopar.  The Skopar weighs next to nothing.  In terms of imaging if I could describe the difference I'd say the Nokton paints with a bolder brush, the Skopar is more even handed, but with a nice relaxed look to the images.  These are all subjective opinion, of course.

I think both Biogons looked better on film.  The Summarit is very good.  I didn't like the Summicron ASPH v1 I had (and it had poor flare resistance).  I did like the v2 Summilux (Canada version), but not the hood/cap arrangement.  The M-Hexanon I bought had focussing issues so I returned it.

I found the f/2 biogon physically too long, as was the M-Hexanon.  The ZM lenses generally have worse ergonomics due to the focus ring bump, I prefer a focus tab which the VM lenses have.  Subjective opinion again though..

[28framelines]

2 hours ago, Tessar. said:

Currently I own the Skopar (VM II) and the Nokton Classic MC II.  I used to own the Summarit and the C-Biogon.  (and f/2 Biogon/Summicron ASPH/Summilux V2/M-Hexanon etc.)

All are great lenses.  What I like about the Skopar is the size and focus tab, although as mentioned earlier in the thread, the aperture ring is a bit fiddly and easy to change setting.  The Nokton probably has more wow factor because it's faster, but even though it's small, it's still bigger and heavier than the Skopar.  The Skopar weighs next to nothing.  In terms of imaging if I could describe the difference I'd say the Nokton paints with a bolder brush, the Skopar is more even handed, but with a nice relaxed look to the images.  These are all subjective opinion, of course.

I think both Biogons looked better on film.  The Summarit is very good.  I didn't like the Summicron ASPH v1 I had (and it had poor flare resistance).  I did like the v2 Summilux (Canada version), but not the hood/cap arrangement.  The M-Hexanon I bought had focussing issues so I returned it.

I found the f/2 biogon physically too long, as was the M-Hexanon.  The ZM lenses generally have worse ergonomics due to the focus ring bump, I prefer a focus tab which the VM lenses have.  Subjective opinion again though..

Thank you! That was a lot of very handy information! I’m gonna try to see if I can borrow the Skopar, as it seems like the best option for me for cost/performance.

[haikos]

I think the ZM lenses focus more easily with the ribbed rings that you can just grab and turn rather than the absolutely tiny and very shallow (and slippery) VM focus tabs. The Leica tabs are everything though.

[hmzimelka]

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From a build point of view here is a reason why I don't like the Zeiss Planar 50mm, 35mm Biogon and C-Biogon.

The focus ring drives the focus mechanism with a brass tab, that pushes the inner steel focus ring in both directions and also travels up and down as the block extends and recedes. No problem in theory. What happened on both of mine, and worse for the C-Biogon, is that this tab was smaller than the cut out it ran in, which allowed for a bit of backlash when switching directions. It's very minor. There is no way to adjust this without widening the tab, which is a tricky job at best.

Voigtlander use a simmilar mechanism, except their brass tabs have a cut down the middle like a tuning fork, and these can be removed and bent open to adjust the pre-load on the inner focus ring slot. This way one can eliminate any focus backlash between focus ring and the inner focus ring. 

It's really annoying on the Planar 50mm, but I've adjusted this looseness on Voigtlander lenses easily. 

Of all the Zeiss an Voigltander lenses I've taken apart, I prefer the internal design language of the Voigtlanders more.

Just another 2c.

Edited February 4, 2023 by hmzimelka

[Malabito]

I have the 35mm Skopar, use it with a M10 as backup to my zeiss 35mm 1.4 ZM. when I don't want to carry a huge lens, I take the 35mm Skopar. Its super small, light and has good image I quality. 

I never tested the zeiss 2.8, but its supposed to be pretty pretty good. I like my skopar for what it is, a small, light 35mm with good image quality, and I bought it for cheap but I think the zeiss is going to be better, at least that has been my experience with other zeiss lenses. 

Some samples below with the 35mm Skopar and M10. 

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[28framelines]

7 hours ago, Malabito said:

I have the 35mm Skopar, use it with a M10 as backup to my zeiss 35mm 1.4 ZM. when I don't want to carry a huge lens, I take the 35mm Skopar. Its super small, light and has good image I quality. 

I never tested the zeiss 2.8, but its supposed to be pretty pretty good. I like my skopar for what it is, a small, light 35mm with good image quality, and I bought it for cheap but I think the zeiss is going to be better, at least that has been my experience with other zeiss lenses. 

Some samples below with the 35mm Skopar and M10. 

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Thank you!!!! This is a wide range of photos, and they all look wonderful. The portrait of the man half way through the set is fantastic, and the type of image I was hoping to see to get an idea of how well it performs for this type of photography. Gives me much more confidence, honestly. And as for it serving a specific space in the kit (when you don’t want to carry the Zeiss 35 f1.4), I feel like that makes a good 35mm combo. Basically the smallest and largest 35mm on Leica M! Haha

[S/W]

I have both and use them quite differently. When I'm traveling in analog with just two lenses, I take the Zeiss Biogon ZM 2.8/35 along with the Leica Summicron 2.0/50 (V). If I'm traveling with larger equipment, like on a road trip through California, I like to supplement with the super small Voigtländer Color Skopar VM 2.5/35 II even on the M11.

Fortunately, the two are not so expensive that you can just try it out and then decide on one or even both. In my opinion, you generally don't do much wrong with today's lenses, you just have to decide how much you are willing to spend for the last millimeters of performance.

Since examples always say much more than many words (even if they are only small internet pictures) one in analog black and white and one in color on the M11 to set the mood.
 

Sicily

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Leica MP * Zeiss 2.8/35 ZM * Adox Silvermax 100 * Adox Silvermax 1+29 * Nikon Coolscan V ED

San Francisco

Leica M11 * Voigtländer Color Skopar VM 2.5/35 P-Type II * Capture One Pro 20

[geoffreyg]

Coincidentally, I just got the Zeiss Biogon 2.8, and was testing it against Color Skopar 2.5 and Summicron ASPH II on an M10M. A note of caution -  lens variation may be a factor. The Skopar and Zeiss were bought new, the 'Cron from a fellow Leica owner. 

When it arrived, the Color Skopar had noticeable lens shift and close up, missed by a couple of inches if focused with rangefinder patch only. It was sent to SK Grimes to correct with shimming, which they did very nicely. So its fine now. And the Summicron has been in hand for some time but I never seemed to gel with it. Its sister, the 50 'cron has special magic, this one seemed a bit dull. The Zeiss was purchased due to Sean Reid's superb review.

All three were used to shoot one scene, at three apertures: f 2.8 (wide open for the Zeiss), 5.6 and 8, focused with live view. Results: 

- Summicron visibly a bit softer although with pleasant general feel. Missing pop. Not in the same league.    

- Zeiss and Color Skopar were both lovely, and practically identical. Hard to tell apart. Both very sharp in center, reasonably so for mid side, but a bit soft on the far sides. Probably not noticeable in say a 20" print, but not quite at tech'l camera level (OK... no surprise here...). Best at f 5.6, as diffraction comes in at f8. 

Only two differences: the Zeiss had a wee bit nicer bokeh when wide open, on some tree limbs harshly lit in the distance. Nothing super significant, but somehow it felt nicer. And the Skopar oddly had a wee bit of front focusing (maybe a curved focus plane) on the far right side. On the left side, the two were totally identical. But don't take this too harshly - the for 90% of the scene, the two were indistinguishable even at 100% viewing. Surprising. 

In essence, if you get a good Color Skopar, you aren't giving up a thing. You might have to fiddle to get the rangefinder focusing right, but it's superb. 

Would love to try a Summarit, or even the FLE II, but for now, with these two very good 35mm lenses, the matter is settled. 

Hope this helps. Can send images if anyone wants. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by geoffreyg

[28framelines]

1 hour ago, geoffreyg said:

Coincidentally, I just got the Zeiss Biogon 2.8, and was testing it against Color Skopar 2.5 and Summicron ASPH II on an M10M. A note of caution -  lens variation may be a factor. The Skopar and Zeiss were bought new, the 'Cron from a fellow Leica owner. 

When it arrived, the Color Skopar had noticeable lens shift and close up, missed by a couple of inches if focused with rangefinder patch only. It was sent to SK Grimes to correct with shimming, which they did very nicely. So its fine now. And the Summicron has been in hand for some time but I never seemed to gel with it. Its sister, the 50 'cron has special magic, this one seemed a bit dull. The Zeiss was purchased due to Sean Reid's superb review.

All three were used to shoot one scene, at three apertures: f 2.8 (wide open for the Zeiss), 5.6 and 8, focused with live view. Results: 

- Summicron visibly a bit softer although with pleasant general feel. Missing pop. Not in the same league.    

- Zeiss and Color Skopar were both lovely, and practically identical. Hard to tell apart. Both very sharp in center, reasonably so for mid side, but a bit soft on the far sides. Probably not noticeable in say a 20" print, but not quite at tech'l camera level (OK... no surprise here...). Best at f 5.6, as diffraction comes in at f8. 

Only two differences: the Zeiss had a wee bit nicer bokeh when wide open, on some tree limbs harshly lit in the distance. Nothing super significant, but somehow it felt nicer. And the Skopar oddly had a wee bit of front focusing (maybe a curved focus plane) on the far right side. On the left side, the two were totally identical. But don't take this too harshly - the for 90% of the scene, the two were indistinguishable even at 100% viewing. Surprising. 

In essence, if you get a good Color Skopar, you aren't giving up a thing. You might have to fiddle to get the rangefinder focusing right, but it's superb. 

Would love to try a Summarit, or even the FLE II, but for now, with these two very good 35mm lenses, the matter is settled. 

Hope this helps. Can send images if anyone wants. 

I’m definitely interested in some samples!

[fotojobo]

I have been shooting the Zeiss 35 2.8 Biogon as my street lens for over 10 years. I also have the 35mm summicron. The Biogon is an excellent and very sharp lens and as good as the Leica except for that extra stop. Here are some sample photos. 

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[Mahesh]

Hi this might have been covered elsewhere but for those who have been using Biogon 2.8, what profile do you use? I read somewhere elmarit 28.  

[lct]

2 hours ago, Mahesh said:

Hi this might have been covered elsewhere but for those who have been using Biogon 2.8, what profile do you use? I read somewhere elmarit 28.  

Zeiss used to advise the Elmarit 28/2.8 # 11804 (000011) or 11809 (011011) lens profiles preferably but i don't use profiles of different focal lengths to avoid possible conflicts on the M11 personally. For a close vigneting behavior among Leica 35mm M lenses, you may wish to try the 35/1.4 pre-asph lens profile (001100).

[geoffreyg]

compare 35mm at f2.8, 5.6, 8

Here are some of the comparisons, 100% crops from each of the three lenses at different apertures. Images not modified in post. Included also are full jpgs at f5.6.  If wanted, will add the DNGs. 

Earlier disparaging comments about the Summicron need to be amended, apologies. Upon a more detailed look, its much closer to the others than thought, in some cases equal. What is strange is that it is back focusing in the middle of the image, and then comes forward on the sides. The straight on portion of the wall just doesn't seem to be there, although other parts of the 'cron images are quite fine. Just to be clear, the 50 'cron is one of the all time favorites, but the 35 'cron here (ASPH) isn't quite the same. Of the three here, the CV Color Skopar looks strongest to my eyes. 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by geoffreyg

[28framelines]

Update:

 

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[Lee S]

On 3/3/2023 at 8:42 PM, 28framelines said:

Update:

 

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18 months on, how you finding it? 

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Hallo,

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[28framelines]

55 minutes ago, Lee S said:

18 months on, how you finding it? 

I ended up upgrading to the Summilux Steel Rim Reissue. Didn’t need 2 35mm lenses. That being said, it’s an absolutely awesome lens, and I found I didn’t need a lens hood for any flaring.

[fjm1959]

This thread has been very helpful and great to see actual user images. I'm more taken with the Skopar than Zeiss but that's just me, each to his own. The Flickr set from 28Framelines is very nice Thank you.