Black and white with M10 and M10 Monochrome

[adan]

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On 1/25/2023 at 1:26 AM, shanefking said:

Wow, this is the first I’ve heard of this.  Does rotating appear to negatively affect prints?

It could in many cases.

But I've been experimenting, and

1) it is much more obvious in the "on-the-fly" raw developing window than it is when the picture is finally exported to Photoshop.

2) it can also appear, to a lesser extent, even with rotating in Photoshop itself.

3) it also changes with the method of calculating the new pixels in the rotated image chosen in PS (bicubic auto/sharper/smoother, bilinear, nearest neighbor). Nearest neighbor produces no moiré at all (but of course can result in "jaggies" in straight edges and similar).

I may make a separate detailed post in the Monochrom forum once I've played with more of the variables.

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[Nimar]

1 hour ago, adan said:

It could in many cases.

But I've been experimenting, and

1) it is much more obvious in the "on-the-fly" raw developing window than it is when the picture is finally exported to Photoshop.

2) it can also appear, to a lesser extent, even with rotating in Photoshop itself.

3) it also changes with the method of calculating the new pixels in the rotated image chosen in PS (bicubic auto/sharper/smoother, bilinear, nearest neighbor). Nearest neighbor produces no moiré at all (but of course can result in "jaggies" in straight edges and similar).

I may make a separate detailed post in the Monochrom forum once I've played with more of the variables.

Believe this is just adobes preview rendition and doesn’t effect output. I’ve also seen this with zooming in too far. 
 

Actual export to jpg or print have none of these artifacts. 

[jimofnyc]

The cool effect I have found using a color digital Leica is that I can adjust the amount of any particular color before converting to B&W.  It's almost like having every available color filter mounted on a black and white camera.  Not enough contrast in the cloudy sky?, reduce the blue channel before conversion.  Plants to dark? Increase green gain before conversion, etc.

[pgh]

On 1/17/2023 at 9:59 PM, Jeff S said:

One can use a phone camera for similar online pics.  Better to make prints with both using your own shooting, editing and print workflow. No two people will produce the same results… thankfully. Note, too, that one difference in the workflows will be due to the use of colored lens filters (M10M) vs ability to use color channels in post (M10). 

FWIW, the most significant benefit I realize from using my Monochrom(s) is a mindset derived from the lack of color distractions when looking for pics.  
 

Jeff

This seems hardly worth it then, IMO.

I've had no trouble getting this effect from keeping my M10 jpgs set to monochrome. I've been vacillating on the M10M vs R because the low light quality and resolution seem to be the obvious biggest selling point - with a quality drop off but post flexibility (and color, obviously) of the R. The color channel editing for monos is what makes an image work sometimes, so it would be hard to give up. M10 files make great monochromes in my experience, they just have a lower ceiling. Thing is, I end up printing over 30" often enough, so this matters. 

If one only ever shot for screens I can't imagine getting an M10M or even M10R. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by pgh

[adan]

On 2/8/2023 at 4:17 PM, Nimar said:

Believe this is just adobes preview rendition and doesn’t effect output. I’ve also seen this with zooming in too far. 

Actual export to jpg or print have none of these artifacts. 

Well, some examples have made it as far as jpgs uploaded to the forum. And if printed might show.

See this thread, in pages 4-5 and later (jlomley posts)

 

AND the effect has also shown up in Q2M posted images - with the addition of curved "waffles" created by the camera correcting (straightening) the 28 f/1.7's native fisheye distortion. Note especially deep shadow and hair above the face.

 

[Nimar]

19 minutes ago, adan said:

Well, some examples have made it as far as jpgs uploaded to the forum. And if printed might show.

See this thread, in pages 4-5 and later (jlomley posts)

 

AND the effect has also shown up in Q2M posted images - with the addition of curved "waffles" created by the camera correcting (straightening) the 28 f/1.7's native fisheye distortion. Note especially deep shadow and hair above the face.

 

Neither of these threads appear to be relevant to the suggestion that one shouldn’t rotate images or that there is some other moire issue. 
 

If you push dials too far stuff looks bad… 

[adan]

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4 hours ago, Nimar said:

Neither of these threads appear to be relevant to the suggestion that one shouldn’t rotate images or that there is some other moire issue. 

I'll assume you missed this specific part of the extended discussion

However.......

4 hours ago, Nimar said:

If you push dials too far stuff looks bad… 

That was more or less what I said at the time, and I got this response....

Quote

Thanks for the lecture of how we should post process our photos. 

I'll let you guys sort it out between you.

[Besprosvet]

I both have the M240 and the M246, so, same generation. The difference I see with my own eyes, is that black and white from the M240 looks really nice and organic, BUT, it has less nuances compared to the M246, as expected by the loss of gradients and "micro contrast resolution" of the demosaicing.

All in all, on such a surface 1/4 of the data is blue, 1/4 is red, 2/4 is green. Nobody can expect to have to same "gradients' resolution" of a sensor that uses 100% of its date to do it with no demosaicing with no light wavelenght filtered in different ways from each pixel etc etc...

Even the Pixii that tries to do all this from the raw (starting from a color sensor compensating the wavelenght filtered from each pixel, so avoiding demosaicing) gets very close but still, can't really match the monochrom.

That said, I believe that Leica does an amazing job with color tuning (beside IR pollution...), to the point that I don't miss at all the rendering of my Sigma DP2 Merrill (going on the bay very soon). But I still wish Foveon was in the hands of Leica, not Sigma with their awful """art""" lenses and "lots of resolving power but not enough micro contrast"...

Long story short: to me, any monochrom looks like a superior format device compared to any color bayer sensor, and post processing is really nice, given that 90% of what you have to do is the curve, even the jpgs from my M246 (with contrast maxed out in camera) look already stunning. If you do a lot of black and white and like the idea of NOT having the choice of color, get it, if not, maybe it's not worth it for you.

PS: all this is what I see using Capture One, on Lightroom the experience may differ, Idk.

[charlesphoto99]

Not to mention that the M10M is the best built of all the digital M's I've owned so far (at least my copy). Much tighter feeling than my M10-R black paint. A real work of finely machined art, esp with the bespoke Leica M10 grip attached.

[Jeff S]

39 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Not to mention that the M10M is the best built of all the digital M's I've owned so far (at least my copy). Much tighter feeling than my M10-R black paint. A real work of finely machined art, esp with the bespoke Leica M10 grip attached.

Mine are equally robust, except of course for the black paint surface.

Jeff

[charlesphoto99]

20 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Mine are equally robust, except of course for the black paint surface.

Jeff

Yes, both are equally robust, but there's a certain overall svelte feeling to my M10M that the R black paint doesn't have. Might just be aesthetics (I do wish they hadn't used chrome highlights on the R BP) or the fact that my R has been used 10X more than my 10M! 

[Jeff S]

My M10-R is newer than my M10M, and also  gets far less use. It operates just as smoothly, however. The M10M is special, but I think more due to aesthetics and to the unique monochrome experience it provides.

Jeff

[Steve M]

I have a Leica IIIf and an M3 and enjoy occasional b&w photography

I recently shot a roll of Ilford XP2 400 in my  IIIf with and I was very pleased with the results. Then as an experiment I took a couple of B&W Jpeg photographs with my M10. The results were OK but not much to write home about.

Next I took a couple of DNG images with my M10 and processed the Raw files in Lightroom Classic.  By applying one of the LR presets (No 12) I produced some very acceptable photographs.

But I still prefer walking around with either my IIIf or M3 loaded with b&w film as it somehow takes the experience back to when I started taking photographs seventy years ago.

[brickftl]

On 1/17/2023 at 9:59 PM, Jeff S said:

FWIW, the most significant benefit I realize from using my Monochrom(s) is a mindset derived from the lack of color distractions when looking for pics.  
 

Jeff

this b/w mindset is a head scratcher. Why can't a M10 shooter go out on a shoot with the same b/w mindset irrespective of him carrying a color capable cam?

In my case much of what I process is b/w, and I have my M10 set to display b/w only on the LCD.

[Jeff S]

28 minutes ago, brickftl said:

this b/w mindset is a head scratcher. Why can't a M10 shooter go out on a shoot with the same b/w mindset irrespective of him carrying a color capable cam?

In my case much of what I process is b/w, and I have my M10 set to display b/w only on the LCD.

People differ.  For me, it’s not what’s on the screen or in the VF; it’s what’s in my brain, and what I’m concentrating on, even with the camera not to my eye. When I use a Monochrom, just like when I loaded B&W film in my camera, I have NO option to shoot color (software “tricks” aside). And that means that I’m 100% looking for tonalities and luminance, not colors as I would with other digital cams or colored film.  No distractions possible.  With my M10–R or SL2, I have a different approach/mindset.  (And I don’t need to consider colored glass filters.)

YMMV.  Mike Johnston, editor of TOP, has written extensively about this, and like me, he understands that others may not share this view (no pun intended). 
 

Jeff

Edited May 24, 2024 by Jeff S

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, brickftl said:

this b/w mindset is a head scratcher. Why can't a M10 shooter go out on a shoot with the same b/w mindset irrespective of him carrying a color capable cam?

In my case much of what I process is b/w, and I have my M10 set to display b/w only on the LCD.

You will still miss the tonal rendering of a monochrome camera. It cannot be replicated in postprocessing. 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

You will still miss the tonal rendering of a monochrome camera. It cannot be replicated in postprocessing. 

Depends on the pic, lighting conditions, etc, for me.  At modest ISOs, sometimes the opposite occurs, where the subtle use of color channels in post can yield advantages for the color-based sensor.  But if my pic/print isn’t superb, it’s usually my fault, not the camera or lens.

Jeff

[brickftl]

On 5/24/2024 at 3:34 PM, jaapv said:

You will still miss the tonal rendering of a monochrome camera. It cannot be replicated in postprocessing. 

we'll just have to agree to disagree

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[costa43]

Many shoot with a monochrom for the simplicity and mindset but I actually find it harder to decide which one to take out so it actually makes my life less simple!

On a more serious note, sometimes I look at a monochrom pic I took and think wow. In these instances I guess it validates my decision to keep one but nowadays I tend to just use a colour camera for the flexibility it provides in post. I’m tempted to sell my Monochrom and just load some b&w film on the occasions that I want that experience.

[3D-Kraft.com]

Am 24.5.2024 um 19:38 schrieb Jeff S:

People differ.  For me, it’s not what’s on the screen or in the VF; it’s what’s in my brain, and what I’m concentrating on, even with the camera not to my eye. When I use a Monochrom, just like when I loaded B&W film in my camera, I have NO option to shoot color (software “tricks” aside). And that means that I’m 100% looking for tonalities and luminance, not colors as I would with other digital cams or colored film.  No distractions possible.

Yes, obiously people differ. In order to switch my mind to a "monochrome view", I do not need to buy another camera. The support from the camera can be only a B/W preview, which you also can get from the color models.

Am 24.5.2024 um 21:34 schrieb jaapv:

You will still miss the tonal rendering of a monochrome camera. It cannot be replicated in postprocessing. 

Could you please explain more precisely, what you mean with "tonal rendering"? If what is meant is the number of possible gradations of a gradient from black to white, this is limited to the 14 bits of the sensor. If the software allows more bit depth, you can use information from the neighboring pixels to get a finer gradient by sacrificing the resolution. That's, what the demosaicing of a Bayer sensor does as well (theoretically, you have 2^42 gradations from RGB channels each carrying 14 bits depth) - but with the advantage, that you still can adjust your "filtering" in postprocessing when you still have seperated RGB channels. It's just a software thing...

So, the only advantage that I see for a monochrome-M is the slightly higher level of detail that you can get, when there is no demosaicing applied and the 1-2 stops higher usable ISO. Looking at the resolution and ISO performance, that you can already get from the M11 (color version), we are talking about very extreme use cases, where you might get an advantage. At the M10 and earlier models, the difference may be more relevant.

There might be one more advantage from a different filter stack: I don't know, if the monochrome-Ms also have a "weaker" IR-cut filter like the M8(.2) had. If so, you may have some additional information in the captured image data coming from the IR spectrum. One of the reasons, why many people like the M8 also for B/W.