Is an 11 o'clock infinity lock lens usable on a M body?

[Jul]

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I wonder whether the lens release button on the M body would interfer 
by mounting the lens?

Thank you in advance for your replies.

[luigi bertolotti]

Mmmh... I think that there is a prior problem : a LTM adapter with a cutout to manage the position of the infinity catch of the knob... anyway, I have an Elmar 50 11 o'clock and several adapters... when at home can try...

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by luigi bertolotti

[Jul]

5 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said:

Mmmh... I think that there is a prior problem : a LTM adapter with a cutout to manage the position of the infinity catch of the knob...

You are definitely right Luigi!
At least with the old Leica adapter, I can now see it would block.
Thank you.

[Pyrogallol]

Yes, it will jam. But the trick if you want to use the lens is to slightly unscrew it from the adaptor before taking the lens off infinity, then it will turn off infinity and you can fully screw the lens back into the adaptor. Once off infinity you can focus as usual. When you turn the focussing back towards infinity it will jam at about 100 feet / 30 mtrs, which is still within the depth of field for even f3.5

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[Jul]

Thank you Pyrogallol for the very detailed and well illustrated
explaination!

There is a workaround for the adapter cutout problem, that is a good
start. With that out of the way, let's get back to the problem the body
release button could possibly cause!

[luigi bertolotti]

By logic, looking at Pyrogallol's pics, there ought to be no issue about the les release button : no part of the lens goes deeper than the adapter, so, if you can mount the adapter, no problem with the lens.

[willeica]

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50 minutes ago, Jul said:

Thank you Pyrogallol for the very detailed and well illustrated
explaination!

There is a workaround for the adapter cutout problem, that is a good
start. With that out of the way, let's get back to the problem the body
release button could possibly cause!

There is no per se problem about using an 11 O'Clock lens on an M with an adaptor apart from the issue of the infinity position with the focus tab, which is irrespective of the 7 or 11 O'Clock issue. If you use a cutaway adaptor with a digital M you may get a 'no lens detected' issue - my experience of this varies, but I have a box of adaptors I can experiment with. You can sometimes take the lens and adaptor off together using the button. I usually go to minimum focus to do this. If this does not work, I unscrew the LTM lens and then use an old 1950s M rear lens cap with lugs to take off the M adaptor.

The problem with all of this is that the guys who designed and made the 11 O'Clock and 7 O'Clock LTM lenses had no notion of M bayonet mount cameras , or even more so digital cameras. So, you are going to be dealing with work arounds, no matter what you do. 

William 

[zeitz]

Can you not buy a Voigtlander/Cosina Type II LTM adapter and grind a new cutaway where you need it to be?

https://shop.cameraquest.com/leica-screw-mount-adapters/rayqual-24/35/135-6-bit-coded-leica-screw-mount-type-iii-leica-screw-mount-lens-to-leica-m-body-adapt

[Jul]

2 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said:

By logic, looking at Pyrogallol's pics, there ought to be no issue about the les release button : no part of the lens goes deeper than the adapter

My logic might be flawed but the lens release button protudes out of the body above adapter level (at least on some M), the focusing lever
protudes on the outside of the adapter so I think there still might be a risk of collision.

2 hours ago, willeica said:

There is no per se problem about using an 11 O'Clock lens on an M with an adaptor apart from the issue of the infinity position with the focus tab, which is irrespective of the 7 or 11 O'Clock issue. If you use a cutaway adaptor with a digital M you may get a 'no lens detected' issue - my experience of this varies, but I have a box of adaptors I can experiment with. You can sometimes take the lens and adaptor off together using the button. I usually go to minimum focus to do this. If this does not work, I unscrew the LTM lens and then use an old 1950s M rear lens cap with lugs to take off the M adaptor.

The problem with all of this is that the guys who designed and made the 11 O'Clock and 7 O'Clock LTM lenses had no notion of M bayonet mount cameras , or even more so digital cameras. So, you are going to be dealing with work arounds, no matter what you do.

Thanks for the words of warning.
All my lenses are uncoded and lens detection either to "off" or "manual"
on the M9 (no experience with other digital camera). I also already had
to use the trick with the rear lens cap to separate lens and adapter.

As of now, I don't have any problem using 7 o'clock lens with M9 but I'm
still wondering about 11 o'clock lens.

1 hour ago, zeitz said:

Can you not buy a Voigtlander/Cosina Type II LTM adapter and grind a new cutaway where you need it to be?

I could for sure but it would not help regarding lens release button on
the body (if it really is a problem).

[zeitz]

35 minutes ago, Jul said:

I could for sure but it would not help regarding lens release button on
the body (if it really is a problem).

I can see there would be a problem on an M3.  I don't see the problem on any other M that I have, thru the M9.

[luigi bertolotti]

49 minutes ago, Jul said:

My logic might be flawed but the lens release button protudes out of the body above adapter level (at least on some M), the focusing lever
protudes on the outside of the adapter so I think there still might be a risk of collision.

 

Your logic is not flawed... I didn't think of it...🙄; well, in the meantime I have came back home and tested in the flesh : my old 5 digits Elmar 50 11 o'clock ("bell-push" knob), mounted on M adapter with the trick above suggested. I have no more than 3 M bodies. and here the findings : 

- M 240 : no problem

- M3 : problem ! interferes with the collar around the release button (M3 single stroke 872,457)

- M4 : problem ! interferes (slightly, but does) with the button itself  (M4 1.181.270)

So...  you did it right to insist 🙂 ; and we must be grateful to Leica that, in his last digital M, solved a problem of back compatibility which they didn't manage on the first Ms 😀

Edited January 2, 2023 by luigi bertolotti

[Jul]

47 minutes ago, zeitz said:

I can see there would be a problem on an M3.  I don't see the problem on any other M that I have, thru the M9.

39 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said:

- M 240 : no problem

- M3 : problem ! interferes with the collar around the release button (M3 single stroke 872,457)

- M4 : problem ! interferes (slightly, but does) with the button itself  (M4 1.181.270)

Thanks to both of you, so it seems it will be allright with modern style
lens release button body, M6 and up, and will block with classic style
lens release button body, M4 and down. I have no idea regarding M5 but
don't use one anyway.

[Pyrogallol]

Same lens, on an early M3 it jams against the button surround. On an M4-2 without button surround it touches but just clears the top of the button.

My lens focussing arm has a very slight upward bend, don’t know if that was standard, but a straight one might not clear the button on the M4-2. All those lenses are 90+ years old so may vary slightly.

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Edited January 2, 2023 by Pyrogallol

[Jul]

20 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

On an M4-2 without button surround it touches but just clears the top of the button.

My lens focussing arm has a very slight upward bend, don’t know if that was standard, but a straight one might not clear the button on the M4-2. All those lenses are 90+ years old so may vary slightly.

As far as bent or not focusing arm are concerned, I see sample of both
while looking around. My 7 o'clock short barrel elmar which came with a
Leica I converted to Leica II has a bent focusing arm as well but it has
itself been converted from 11 o'clock to 7 o'clock at the same time the
camera has been converted from I to II. Maybe bent focusing arm was
standard at some time?

There might not be a definitive answer regarding 11 o'clock lens and M
body compatibility. To sum up, chances are better for an 11 o'clock lens
with a bent focusing arm on a collarless lens classic style release
button M body or modern style release button M body but sample variation
may apply…

[luigi bertolotti]

55 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

Same lens, on an early M3 it jams against the button surround. On an M4-2 without button surround it touches but just clears the top of the button.

My lens focussing arm has a very slight upward bend, don’t know if that was standard, but a straight one might not clear the button on the M4-2. All those lenses are 90+ years old so may vary slightly.

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If I'd take a similar pic of my Elmar and my M4 it should be very similar... but my arm hasn't the small bend... and, as said in #11, no way to rotate freely... 

Edited January 2, 2023 by luigi bertolotti

[UliWer]

It is certainly not the most elegant solution to cut off the edge of a LTM-to-M-adapter to ensure that the focus knob of a 1:2.5/5cm Hektor with 11 o'clock infinity lock will not collide with the adapter:

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It works though...

Of course this manipulation of the adapter will only help to adapt the lens on certain digital bodies (M9 and M10). The focussing knob still collides with the lens release of an M3 or an M2 - which I'd never use with the Hektor...

It is worse that the focussing knob collides with the button for long exposures of a Leica III - my only nickel body to properly use a nickel Hektor...

Funny that the knob doesn't collide with the button for long exposures of a IIIf (slightly larger body). . 

 

[Pyrogallol]

The focussing arm of this Hektor won’t jam against anything, it has been neatly removed at some time in the past.

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