AI Tools : Luminar, On1, or Topaz which one ?

[dpitt]

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Thanks @jaapv for pointing out  I was missing something. I have been out of touch with photography for a few years and did not realize that fixing motion blur and focussing errors could be this easy with today's AI software.

This morning I downloaded Topaz Sharpen AI trial version and threw it on a photo discussed in this thread:

My good old Macbook Pro (2015) protested loudly with his fans when I loaded the 18MP M9 DNG into it. Every adjustment takes rather long, I would not bring up the patience to do this with every blurry shot I have, but some keepers may be worth it. It took like 10 min or so to export the result as TIF.
The hassle of saving it first as TIF and then proceeding is not very convenient also, but maybe if one can use it as plugin this becomes more streamlined. Currently my LR version is too old to run on Mac OS 12.6 Monterey so I am using Darktable for now.

I was aware of ON1 and Luminar, and am vaguely aware of what they are capable of. Does any of you have experience with these AI packages.

Any recommendations?

Edited December 29, 2022 by dpitt

[jaapv]

They were slow on my (upgraded) 2010 Macpro, fast on my 2020 M1 Mac Mini 16 G B

[hansvons]

If I were you, I‘d upgrade my post-production pipeline before investing in AI-based software. 

If there‘s the budget I‘d get a maxed out MacBook Pro 16“ Max. There are many other less costly Apple offerings, plus M1-based machines are already two years on the market, meaning buying used makes sense. M1 makes all the difference.

That said, the Topaz offerings are interesting and can add value. I use the video uprez tool and it does wonders. Topaz sharpen is interesting as well and can be helpful too, but traditional sharpening is here to stay.

ON1 is a fully-fledged editor. It does the job but there‘s a reason why pros end up with LR or Capture One. I cannot comment on the DXO offerings, but I feel they are, like ON1, targeted more towards the prosumer/enthusiast side, which isn’t bad per se. 

[jaapv]

8 minutes ago, hansvons said:

but traditional sharpening is here to stay.

I doubt it - I tend to use Topaz Sharpen AI, but Denoise AI is sometimes better for light sharpening. Combined with the sharpening brush in PS I rarely use traditional sharpening.

 

8 minutes ago, hansvons said:

If there‘s the budget I‘d get a maxed out MacBook Pro 16“ Max. There are many other less costly Apple offerings, plus M1-based machines are already two years on the market, meaning buying used makes sense. M1 makes all the difference.

 

+1

[dpitt]

8 hours ago, hansvons said:

If I were you, I‘d upgrade my post-production pipeline before investing in AI-based software. 

If there‘s the budget I‘d get a maxed out MacBook Pro 16“ Max. There are many other less costly Apple offerings, plus M1-based machines are already two years on the market, meaning buying used makes sense. M1 makes all the difference.

....
ON1 is a fully-fledged editor. It does the job but there‘s a reason why pros end up with LR or Capture One. I cannot comment on the DXO offerings, but I feel they are, like ON1, targeted more towards the prosumer/enthusiast side, which isn’t bad per se. 

@jaapv and @hansvons Thanks for mentioning the obvious.

Indeed. My hardware was doing fine with standard DNG files up to 24MP, but now it is getting to slow to keep up.
Upgrading the Mac OS to Monterey pushed some of my software over the edge. For example Aperture and my old LR version still work fine under 10.14 but not on Mac OS 12.
I think I want what these AI apps can do, much more than I want to upgrade to the current PS. I like to make edits that stay close to the reality that I saw through the RF when taking the photo. Things like recovering from bad focus or movement blur, and de-noise are far more useful to me than cloning, repairing, merging, etc.

I am now contemplating a move to Capture One i.s.o. moving to LR Cloud or Classic. For one, I do not like the subscription scheme of Adobe. I have had difficulties with the Leica DMR files in LR and saw what edits in FlexColor (also over the Mac OS now) or Capture One can do out of the box. I am actually looking forward to edit some of my keepers again. And I now think Capture One projects would be easier to handle and be more robust when something goes wrong.

It is hard to make the decision. Anyway, I need to say goodbye to my Aperture catalogs for sure and archive the pics in a way that I can find them when needed without the Aperture app. As I understand it, trying to import them all in LR(current version) or Capture One could work but both will lose part of the edits done in Aperture and some of the metadata. 

The original Aperture catalogs open fine in Apple Fotos, but also with loss of metadata e.g. the star ratings and probably the keywords too. I am not prepared to 'downgrade' to Fotos anyway. Maybe I just open them in Fotos for an occasional look or slideshow. And use a nice archive in file structure on the side, to import a few of the original DNGs from scratch in my next PP pipeline when I need them for prints or something.

Are you both working in Capture One, or are you using LR ? How does your PP pipeline look now?

[jaapv]

I used C1 occasionally and still have a fairly recent Pro version (was free with a camera) but I cannot mesh with the program, especially when they started integrating that catalog system. Everything appears counter-intuitive to me. I am a Photoshop user for nearly twenty years now and it appears nothing works better for me (I hate Lightroom, although I occasionally use it in conjunction with my iPhone shots for the easy transfer)  The latest PS with its new algorithms, Neural filters and Enhance in ACR is perfectly suited to my workflow -or the other way around  -. So my workflow is import and backup through Bridge - Optimize in ACR, export to PS 2023 in Adobe RGB 16 bits- Run Topaz Photo AI - do further editing as needed and save to my own catalog sorted by  date or to desktop for immediate use.

[LocalHero1953]

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I have just updated Topaz Denoise to the latest version, which is blindingly fast compared to its predecessor on my desktop (where it was no slouch). My Windows desktop has an AMD Ryzen 9 3900X 12 core processor with 16Gb RAM, and RTX 2080 GPU. Previews happen very quickly, and actual processing and return to Lightroom is just a couple of seconds with 24mp files.

[tangosix]

Topaz for me.  I am enjoying it with sl2s images especially.  The new LR update has more of these tools, but I find that topaz still does a better denoise job as of Jan2023. 

Luminar not my favorite, but has come in handy for face and eye work ... removing dark circles under eyes easily and also that eye iris brightening and color thing that some clients simply insist on.  I tried to be a purist, but it seems that a lot of women over 40 insist on the eye dazzle thing. 

 

[LocalHero1953]

Reactivating this thread about AI post processing tools, arising from comments by @hansvons and @SrMielsewhere.

I see a new Topaz app, Photo AI is available. I use DeNoise AI and Sharpen AI a lot. Both are extremely useful and effective, but I often have to try both to decide which one is best for a particular case. If I use them sequentially from LR I often get artefacts. One app to rule them all would be handy.

Does Photo AI replace DeNoise and Sharpen? Or are they complementary?

Edited March 7, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[SrMi]

IMO, Topaz AI is not mature enough as it has too many bugs. I rather use Sharpen and DeNoise instead. 
I found Dave Kelly’s videos helpful to decide how and when to use Topaz tools:

https://youtube.com/@thejoyofeditingwithdavekelly
 

[LocalHero1953]

4 minutes ago, SrMi said:

IMO, Topaz AI is not mature enough as it has too many bugs. I rather use Sharpen and DeNoise instead. 
I found Dave Kelly’s videos helpful to decide how and when to use Topaz tools:

https://youtube.com/@thejoyofeditingwithdavekelly
 

I assume you mean Topaz Photo AI? What bugs have you found?

Thanks for the reference to Dave kelly's videos.

[SrMi]

10 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I assume you mean Topaz Photo AI? What bugs have you found?

Thanks for the reference to Dave kelly's videos.

Yes, Topaz Photo AI. I found weird artifacts, sharpening and denoise conflicts. The issues appear mainly with very noisy images. I believe I had also issues with raw files from some cameras.

[jaapv]

Very noisy images should be handled by Denoise AI. Photos AI to me is a mild general tool that should be used on photos that are not too problematic, just to clean them up for editing. I don't like the sharpen function on Photos AI and have it disabled. Sharpen AI is a lot better with far more control.

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Reactivating this thread about AI post processing tools, arising from comments by @hansvons and @SrMielsewhere.

I see a new Topaz app, Photo AI is available. I use DeNoise AI and Sharpen AI a lot. Both are extremely useful and effective, but I often have to try both to decide which one is best for a particular case. If I use them sequentially from LR I often get artefacts. One app to rule them all would be handy.

Does Photo AI replace DeNoise and Sharpen? Or are they complementary?

They are complementary. Basically I run Photo AI on import into PS, judge whether it is useful or not.

[hansvons]

I think they are bringing Topaz Sharpening, Denoise, and Gigapixel into one app. That makes tons of sense, as you, @LocalHero1953, mentioned the desire to use them sequentially. But, like you, they probably experienced similar issues, and thus the implementation takes time. 

However, with the latest update, Photo AI became much more helpful as they now include fine-tuning options only available in their standalone applications. 

That being said, there are still issues I like to be addressed. The most important one is the option to suppress halo effects that come with the sharpening process, amplifying bright edges. C1 has an excellent anti-halo function in their sharpening tool that does precisely that. But sadly, C1 does not have machine learning integrated into their sharpening tool, meaning that the sharpening is applied evenly across the images and not weighted (eg, tackling softer corners and sharper areas differently).

I like their approach to not forcing everyone into a super-clean image but leaving it to the user how far they want to go. In the age of AI (in reality, that's manly stupid machine learning and not self-determined intelligence), it's refreshing to see that imperfection is still allowed. 

 

 

[Marc B-C]

I have DeNoise, Gigapixel, Sharpen as separate apps on my MacBook. There are a few late 2022 online reviews that suggest the stand alone are better than Photo AI. Perhaps a 2023 Photo AI version has been released that answers those reviews, however, as I have paid for the stand alone and get free updates for 12 months, I cannot see the benefit of paying out again to combine the apps.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Marc B-C

[hansvons]

1 minute ago, Marc B-C said:

Perhaps a 2023 Photo AI version has been released that answers those reviews, however, as I have paid for the stand alone and get free updates for 12 months, I cannot see the benefit of paying out again to combine the apps.

I think you are eligible to get Photot AI for free, as you already paid for the stand-alone tools. Yes, they upgraded Photo AI just recently. And it improved a lot, so much actually that I stopped using the stand-alone apps.

[Marc B-C]

4 minutes ago, hansvons said:

I think you are eligible to get Photot AI for free, as you already paid for the stand-alone tools. Yes, they upgraded Photo AI just recently. And it improved a lot, so much actually that I stopped using the stand-alone apps.

Thank you. Having just looked, it seems I can get it for free but I have to buy the upgrade bundle for $58.72. That makes more sense rather than $199!

Edited March 7, 2023 by Marc B-C

[jaapv]

I don’t think that Photo AI can replace Sharpen AI or Denoise AI. If you need to do serious corrections the other tools perform better and have more control.  

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[Marc B-C]

8 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I don’t think that Photo AI can replace Sharpen AI or Denoise AI. If you need to do serious corrections the other tools perform better and have more control.  

I will give Photo AI a try based on the "free" download.