M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[Jan1985]

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My M11 freezed with the red light on all the time. Result: I had to send it to Wetzlar and they exchanged the whole mainboard. 2 Weeks later the M11 stopped working with my Visoflex 2. No chance! Result: The 8.500€ M11 again is visiting Wetzlar together with the Visoflex 2. Nearly 10K Camera gives up working.

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[hdmesa]

Will update as I go along. Had one freeze today on startup – I had made changes to my settings and not saved/overwritten the user profile. I resaved the profile and will continue monitoring.

My emails with Leica resulted in a series of questions they seem to be asking everyone. Posting them here just as informational.

• Please state the serial number of your camera:
• Were you using a user profile?
• If so, were these created in a previous firmware?
• Did the shutter sound different on the last picture the camera took?
• Do you charge the battery in the camera or in the external charger?
• Was the previously taken picture still on the display of the camera?
• With which lens/lenses did the error occur?
• What was the approximate distance to subject?
• How old is your battery?
• Did you use Live View?
• Which accessories did you use (Visoflex, flash etc.)?
• Which drive mode? (single, continuous, self-timer, etc)
• Which metering mode did you use? (spot, field, etc)
• Which exposure mode? (A, M, etc)
• Which capture assistants did you use? (level gauge, focus peaking, etc)
• Which SD card did you use? (brand, speed, capacity and UHS-type)
• Did you format the card in your camera, a computer, or both?
• Are you using a software like Lightroom to access the pictures on the card directly or indirecly using a card reader?
• Are you using the memory card with more than one camera without formatting before switching?
• Did the error (only) occur while using the Leica Fotos App?
• Was the camera connected to a device via USB?
• Did the error occur in portrait or landscape mode or both?
• Which ISO setting? (any value, a specific value or auto-iso)
• Which resolution and file format(s) were selected?
• Were there any other anomalies in the crash of her camera?
• Can you provoke /reproduce the freeze with certain settings? If so, which settings?

 

[Qlan]

Interesting. Based on the questions, feels like factors for freeze are: profile, SD card, battery, lenses, settings, with an emphasis on SD card and settings.

The issue with saving to profile or getting back to profile is that certain small changes count as a setting change. For example, when viewing a picture, clicking on the central button to remove/add back the metadata info.  I do that all the time. It’s annoying to need to get back to the saved profile each time after viewing a picture (I don’t do it). 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Qlan

[lct]

On 2/13/2023 at 6:55 PM, hdmesa said:

The M11 needs a way to input the focal length manually. They added that to the SL2/SL2-S so that IBIS could be activated without having to use a manual profile. For the M11, the benefit would be Auto ISO working with the focal length calculations and for recording the focal length to EXIF without having to have show a Leica lens.

Not sure to get your point. When hand-coding an uncoded lens, we can keep the Leica color profile or remove it in PP can't we? Easy to do with Iridient developer for instance but i have not used LR nor C1 for a long time so I don't remember if they have this feature actually.

[hdmesa]

Just now, lct said:

Not sure to get your point. When hand-coding an uncoded lens, we can keep the Leica color profile or remove it in PP can't we? Easy to do with Iridient developer for instance but i have not used LR nor C1 for a long time so I don't remember if they have this feature actually.

As best I understand it, the Leica M cameras do not "bake" vignette correction into the DNGs, but they do process edge color shift correction into the DNG, and that occurs before demosaicing, so it is unalterable and permanent and not simply an instruction to LR/C1 in the DNG that can be turned off. So technically you'd be ok using a profile or manual 6-bit coding for 35mm and longer, but if you get into wide angle lenses, you may run the risk of inadvertently introducing edge color shift. But this can also be used to your benefit, since some lenses between Leica and CV/Zeiss have similar edge color shift issues with some wide angles.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Qlan said:

Interesting. Based on the questions, feels like factors for freeze are: profile, SD card, battery, lenses, settings, with an emphasis on SD card and settings.

The issue with saving to profile or getting back to profile is that certain small changes count as a setting change. For example, when viewing a picture, clicking on the central button to remove/add back the metadata info.  I do that all the time. It’s annoying to need to get back to the saved profile each time after viewing a picture (I don’t do it). 

Yes, this is true – way too easy to "leave" the profile and be back to using the default profile. After saving a profile, my freezes on start-up have been dramatically reduced, but not completely eliminated. I had one freeze on start-up this morning that required a battery pull.

@lct, are you still having an occasional freeze, or are they gone completely?

[Qlan]

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2 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Yes, this is true – way too easy to "leave" the profile and be back to using the default profile. After saving a profile, my freezes on start-up have been dramatically reduced, but not completely eliminated. I had one freeze on start-up this morning that required a battery pull.

Yeah I don't have that many freezes. Interestingly, I get more frequent freezes when I am out and shooting (I turn the camera off between shoots) than at home and turning on/off many times a day. Also I tend to get relatively more freezes right after changing the lens. This points to the lens detection module (the sensor gets a slightly different information. Maybe it compares to the previous information and run some code when there is a change).

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, Qlan said:

Yeah I don't have that many freezes. Interestingly, I get more frequent freezes when I am out and shooting (I turn the camera off between shoots) than at home and turning on/off many times a day. Also I tend to get relatively more freezes right after changing the lens. This points to the lens detection module (the sensor gets a slightly different information. Maybe it compares to the previous information and run some code when there is a change).

Ah, yes, my freeze this morning was after a lens change. I was calibrating rangefinder focus on my new TTA 28 5.6, which requires access to the screws on the back of the lens, so I was doing a lot of lens changes.

[Qlan]

Just now, hdmesa said:

Ah, yes, my freeze this morning was after a lens change. I was calibrating rangefinder focus on my new TTA 28 5.6, which requires access to the screws on the back of the lens, so I was doing a lot of lens changes.

Ha. I'm glad there is someone out there who seems to have the exact freeze behavior as me. Maybe you could send that information to Leica (more freezes after a lens change and my theory on why) and say that someone else (my bug ticket with them is #4132) has the exact same issue. Hopefully they can use that information.

[hdmesa]

5 minutes ago, Qlan said:

Ha. I'm glad there is someone out there who seems to have the exact freeze behavior as me. Maybe you could send that information to Leica (more freezes after a lens change and my theory on why) and say that someone else (my bug ticket with them is #4132) has the exact same issue. Hopefully they can use that information.

Will do!

[lct]

1 minute ago, hdmesa said:

if you get into wide angle lenses, you may run the risk of inadvertently introducing edge color shift.

I can't seem to get this point, sorry again. Either i keep the Leica color profile as is or i remove it in PP. On WA lenses, i can remove it eventually, if i find it too saturated for instance, but i may keep the vignette correction or adjust it at will if needed. Am i  missing something?

[Qlan]

Just now, lct said:

I can't seem to get this point, sorry again. Either i keep the Leica color profile as is or i remove it in PP. On WA lenses, i can remove it eventually, if i find it too saturated for instance, but i may keep the vignette correction or adjust it at will if needed. Am i  missing something?

What we are saying is that when using a lens profile, the camera does some correction and that correction is baked into the RAW and cannot be removed by any software.

[lct]

18 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

@lct, are you still having an occasional freeze, or are they gone completely?

Gone completely on both UHS-I and UHS-II Sandisk cards since i undated my user profiles under FW 1.6.

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, lct said:

I can't seem to get this point, sorry again. Either i keep the Leica color profile as is or i remove it in PP. On WA lenses, i can remove it eventually, if i find it too saturated for instance, but i may keep the vignette correction or adjust it at will if needed. Am i  missing something?

You're missing the two ways things from a Leica M lens profile can be recorded to the DNG by an M body (SL2/SL2-S is different):

1. Non-destructive instructions written to the DNG and read by LR or C1. These can be turned off and on. This is how vignette correction is done.
2. Destructive modifications written to the DNG that are unalterable an undetectable to any post-processing program or DNG/RAW "cleaner" application. This is how the edge color shift correction is done.

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, lct said:

Gone completely on both UHS-I and UHS-II Sandisk cards since i undated my user profiles under FW 1.6.

So the missing link between you and what @Qlan and me are experiencing is you are using coded lenses (either 6-bit factory or manually/physically on the lens) and we are not. Sounds more and more like lens detection is at the heart of the issue for some of us.

Edited February 14, 2023 by hdmesa

[lct]

2 minutes ago, Qlan said:

What we are saying is that when using a lens profile, the camera does some correction and that correction is baked into the RAW and cannot be removed by any software.

Then you are in error. Sounds funny from a retired lawyer to distinguished engineers . As i mentioned above, the Leica color profile can be removed in PP. 

[Qlan]

Just now, lct said:

Then you are in error. Sounds funny from a retired lawyer to distinguished engineers . As i mentioned above, the Leica color profile can be removed in PP. 

No, that's a different thing. Why can't you listen to all those people are saying? I'm again getting frustrated with you.

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, lct said:

Then you are in error. Sounds funny from a retired lawyer to distinguished engineers . As i mentioned above, the Leica color profile can be removed in PP. 

The edge color shift correction is not part of the lens profile in the DNG.

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[lct]

5 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

So the missing link between you and what @Qlan and me are experiencing is you are using coded lenses (either 6-bit factory or manually/physically on the lens) and we are not.

Yes and no as i still use a couple uncoded lenses but i have set up a user profile for them, based on lens detection off. I use it only randomly, typically when the uncoded lens displayed on the status menu is not the one in use. Purely empirical so don't hesitate to correct me if needed.

[lct]

19 minutes ago, Qlan said:

No, that's a different thing. Why can't you listen to all those people are saying? I'm again getting frustrated with you.

Haha sorry but i'm the guy with no problem here .