M11 freeze issues [Merged]

[hdmesa]

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@lct, Have you done another audio capture with the visual of the shutter timing since the newest firmware came out? I would swear it sounds like the delay to reopen the shutter at the end of a single shot sequence has been reduced, and if not reduced in time then somehow made to sound less harsh. The entire sequence now sounds like “shifffffttt” instead of the “shiffft-crunch” mechanical stapler sound I remember.

Edited February 12, 2023 by hdmesa

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[Qlan]

8 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Mine will show the frame lines but no shutter speed / red digits in the rangefinder. Clicking the shutter does nothing. Didn’t try the menu button during the freezes.

The above would happen always if waking from standby but also occasionally just when starting the camera cold after having turned it off, and it had been off a while. I further freeze-proofed it by using airplane mode and changing the display to LCD only (I don’t use/own the Visoflex 2). I don’t know which of those helped. Also strange to me that with airplane mode selected I still see the Wi-Fi icon at the top of the display bars on the LCD — I would think it should have a line through it like the location icon does when it’s disabled.

Thanks. I think this is the same freezing behavior as me (I misremembered, I also get the frame lines, but no red digits/SS). I also have standby mode off and airplane mode on (you need to restart the camera for the icon to show properly). Both my old M11 (returned) and my current M11 has the same issue. It definitely is related to uncoded lenses and lens detection, not SD card.

[lct]

18 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Mine will show the frame lines but no shutter speed / red digits in the rangefinder. Clicking the shutter does nothing. Didn’t try the menu button during the freezes.

The above would happen always if waking from standby but also occasionally just when starting the camera cold after having turned it off, and it had been off a while. I further freeze-proofed it by using airplane mode and changing the display to LCD only (I don’t use/own the Visoflex 2). I don’t know which of those helped. Also strange to me that with airplane mode selected I still see the Wi-Fi icon at the top of the display bars on the LCD — I would think it should have a line through it like the location icon does when it’s disabled.

Did you set up one or more user profiles under firmware 1.6? If not i would set one and see if freezes still happen. Don't ask me why it's just that my freezes stopped when i updated my old user profiles under FW 1.6.

[lct]

15 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

you the CV to be a Leica lens, and the camera give you the correction of the Leica lens. what is it doesn't match and the correction is incorrect?

You may wish to chose a more relevant lens profile or set lens detection to off.

[hdmesa]

16 minutes ago, Qlan said:

Thanks. I think this is the same freezing behavior as me (I misremembered, I also get the frame lines, but no red digits/SS). I also have standby mode off and airplane mode on (you need to restart the camera for the icon to show properly). Both my old M11 (returned) and my current M11 has the same issue. It definitely is related to uncoded lenses and lens detection, not SD card.

Yes, also just confirmed it's still happening sometimes when starting up cold. What's happening in our case is the shutter is refusing to open to start metering. I can use the menu and playback – and in either of those modes, pushing the shutter button will not bring it back out of it. Pushing the FN button to turn on live view will not work. Basically the shutter is freezing on startup.

 

5 minutes ago, lct said:

Did you set up one or more user profiles under firmware 1.6? If not i would set one and see if freezes still happen. Don't ask me why it's just that my freezes stopped when i updated my old user profiles under FW 1.6.

I didn't. I'll try that.

[lct]

23 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

@lct, Have you done another audio capture with the visual of the shutter timing since the newest firmware came out? 

No, i have not sorry. I guess i'm now used to using a stapler to take photos .

Edited February 12, 2023 by lct

[hdmesa]

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19 minutes ago, lct said:

Did you set up one or more user profiles under firmware 1.6? If not i would set one and see if freezes still happen. Don't ask me why it's just that my freezes stopped when i updated my old user profiles under FW 1.6.

Once the profile is saved: when you make changes to a camera setting, do you have to re-save and overwrite the existing profile? Or is it that once you save a profile, you can use it or not use it? 

Edited February 12, 2023 by hdmesa

[Qlan]

8 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Once the profile is saved: when you make changes to a camera setting, do you have to re-save and overwrite the existing profile? Or is it that once you save a profile, you can use it or not use it? 

You can overwrite the profile. But I doubt this will fix our kind of freeze (I tried).

[hdmesa]

2 minutes ago, Qlan said:

You can overwrite the profile. But I doubt this will fix our kind of freeze (I tried).

If you use a coded lens, does the camera still freeze?

[Qlan]

Just now, hdmesa said:

If you use a coded lens, does the camera still freeze?

I don't have a Leica coded lens haha, only the Voigtlander 50mm APO-Lanthar and the Voigtlander 28mm f/2 Ultron type II. But I might get the 35mm lux SR after some more research and trying it in store.

[lct]

44 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Once the profile is saved: when you make changes to a camera setting, do you have to re-save and overwrite the existing profile? Or is it that once you save a profile, you can use it or not use it? 

Once you save a profile, you can use it or not but if you want to modify the profile you have to re-save it under the same profile name if you intend to keep that name in the camera's memory. I suspect you overwrite the existing profile on the SD card this way but i'm no techie.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Once you save a profile, you can use it or not but if you want to modify the profile you have to re-save it under the same profile name if you intend to keep that name in the camera's memory. I suspect you overwrite the existing profile on the SD card this way but i'm no techie.

Thanks, so far so good after adding a profile.

[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, lct said:

You may wish to chose a more relevant lens profile or set lens detection to off.

what is the point in coding the lens then?

[hdmesa]

32 minutes ago, 19and9 said:

not all the auto-iso is set to 1/x*f shutter speed. So camera doesn't have to know the focal length.

This is why I set my auto ISO to a minimum shutter speed instead of the formulas – that way it works with or without assigning a profile.

[Qlan]

12 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

This is why I set my auto ISO to a minimum shutter speed instead of the formulas – that way it works with or without assigning a profile.

I like to set the minimum shutter speed to a 1/n*f formula, so that's why I use the lenses profiles. Also I like to have the lens information in the exif data. So I set a lens in the profile, then after I copy them to my computer, I use exiftool to change the lens info to the real lens info. So yeah, coding lenses can be useful.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Qlan

[hdmesa]

11 minutes ago, Qlan said:

I like to set the minimum shutter speed to a 1/n*f formula, so that's why I use the lenses profiles. Also I like to have the lens information in the exif data. So I set a lens in the profile, then after I copy them to my computer, I use exiftool to change the lens info to the real lens info. So yeah, coding lenses can be useful.

For sure, I agree. I still like the absolute minimum speed for auto ISO, though. The magnification is so high on the M11 60mp at 1:1, I have to limit myself to 1/60-1/125 sec. even with wide angles. I need to work on my shutter technique.

[Qlan]

There are many different kinds of freezes. In our situation, I'm 99% sure it is a bug in the lens detection module. As you described, it seems to mostly (or maybe only) happen when an uncoded lens is used and a "manual M" lens setting is selected. I don't think many people have this combination of factors. At least, since I think it is very very likely software related and not hardware, I am confident in keeping the M11 and hopefully it can be fixed one day (my Leica bug ticket is #4132 if someone needs to reference it).

In the meantime, I'll still hand code my lenses, not only to avoid the freezes, but also for the auto shutter speed and the exif info. lct may not be very technical (and I am also frustrated by him sometimes -- see a few pages before in this thread where I fail to convince him that the lens detection module is never really off despite showing a very logical reasoning and many other people chiming in), but I appreciate his help and his pointers on how to hand code a lens.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Qlan

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, Qlan said:

There are many different kind of freezes. In our situation, I'm 99% sure it is a bug in the lens detection module. As you described, it seems to mostly (or maybe only) happens when an uncoded lens is used and a "manual M" lens is selected. I don't think many people have this combination of factors. At least, since I think it is very very likely software related and not hardware, I am confident in keeping the M11 and hopefully it can be fixed one day.

In the meantime, I'll still hand code my lenses, not only to avoid the freezes, but also for the auto shutter speed and the exif info. lct may not be very technical (and I am also frustrated by him sometimes -- see a few pages before in this thread where I fail to convince him that the lens detection module is never really off despite showing a very logical reasoning and many other people chiming in), but I appreciate his help and his pointers on how to hand code a lens.

His method of using a profile does seem to be working for me so far. Normally, it would have frozen up by now – been letting it sit for 20 minutes and restarting it all afternoon into evening without a freeze. It might not fix it for everyone with our issue, and it still may come back for me, but I'm hopeful. In the meantime, I will see about coding my CV 50 f/1. But my Light Lens Lab lenses don't have a recessed area to manually code them, so I can't escape this completely by coding.

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[Qlan]

Just now, hdmesa said:

His method of using a profile does seem to be working for me so far. Normally, it would have frozen up by now – been letting it sit for 20 minutes and restarting it all afternoon into evening without a freeze. It might not fix it for everyone with our issue, and it still may come back for me, but I'm hopeful. In the meantime, I will see about coding my CV 50 f/1. But my Light Lens Lab lenses don't have a recessed area to manually code them, so I can't escape this completely by coding.

The profile thing doesn’t work for me. And as a software engineer I fail to see how this would help in any way. Seems to be a completely separate thing. But keep us updated. 

[lct]

3 hours ago, Photoworks said:

what is the point in coding the lens then?

Depends upon users i guess. To me the main point is auto iso as i use much auto iso in M mode personally. I cannot use slow shutter speeds on the M11 so i choose 1/2f as shutter speed limit preferably. Works fine for me but the camera has to know the focal length of the lens so i hand code my CV and ZM lenses accordingly. Also i happen to use several lenses of the same focal length so i find it useful to use a lens profile that reminds me of it eventually like my Biogon 35/2.8 that i hand code as a Summarit 35/2.4 because it is a lens i don't own for having a 35/2.5 already. YMMV.

Edited February 13, 2023 by lct