PDAF likely to replace DFD-CDAF on SL3

[sillbeers15]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

2 hours ago, helged said:

For BIF, running/jumping animals, etc: Eye tracking: No succes. Tracking against highlights: No succes. Tracking between straws, brushes, trees: No succes. Tracking against busy backgrounds: No succes. Yes, it could be me, and "No" doesn't mean 100 percent, but perhaps 80-90 percent, failure rates.

I have tested the various AF combinations that I am aware of, including reducing the sensor estate to APS-C (and going back to FF in post). I would think that I have >10.000 C-AF test-shots with SL2, SL2-S, S1R, S5.

For the above situations, the succes rate with Canon R5 could be 95+ percent (with eye tracking, 10-20 fps, very impressive). Previously, I have experience with eg Nikon D5 and D500. High succes rate for the Nikons too, although not at the level of R5.

I understand that the SL-system isn't made for these types of shooting situations. It would nevertheless be useful to have a more responsive, consistent & reliable C-AF system in L-mount. S5II seems to be there, and SLx will (likely) follow. Great! 

Thanks for sharing your experience. I can only say that my experience is somewhat different. My upmost challenge is to get the fast moving subject to appear in frame and not loose it before successful AF lock on. Next is to successfully place the moving subject within the focusing box and lock-on AF tracking successfully while the subject and myself continue to move. If above is successful, my AFC success rate (criticality focused) is about 70%. Therefore I resort to APSC frame setting and use a dot sight viewer together with zone focus settling to improve above.

On shooting portraits, I leave the focus to Eye detection AF completely and my success rate is close to 100% with the SL75mm. Lately I find my 0.95 Noctilux even a struggle to manually focus on my SL2.

Seeing the PDAF + CDAF hybrid implemented in full frame Lumix cameras with animal eye detection, gives me hope for SL3 to enhance AFC tracking capability on tracking fast moving subjects.

[Luke_Miller]

4 hours ago, Malabito said:

o    You have no way to disengage face detect in a fast and efficient way when using it, lets say you are in an event shooting and want to change fast from a subject to an object, yes you can press the joystick, that somehow does it now, but when you release the focus button, it goes back to face detect, so you need to be constantly pressing the joystick
o    You have no  fast way to engage face detect, lets say you shoot in AFC with tracking, but in some situations, you want do a portrait of a subject, you would like to engage face detect, take the pict and disengaged it

On my SL2 I have one of the front FN buttons set to allow me to quickly shift among the various focus modes.  No menu diving.

-    You have no way to use multiple focus modes at the same time, like assign AFC with tracking to the shutter button and AFS to another, so depending on the shooting condition you use one or the other without having to mingle with settings.

I have the other front FN button set to allow quick change in User Profiles.  One is set for AF-S and the Other AF-C. No menu diving

- You cant really shoot with backfocus button, if you use backfocus button, whenever you release the focus is most of the time out of focus, so you cant really trust it to be used in such way.

I shoot with backbutton focusing exclusively.  In AF-S a press and release holds focus.  You are correct that in AF-C it often does not hold focus when released, so I do not release it.  Held down I get in focus shots on static subjects as well as moving ones (but not fast moving ones).  When I first got my SL2 I tried to use AF like my Nikons.  Total failure and initially I was discouraged. Once I discovered how to take advantage of the SL2's customizations I'm a happy camper.

 

[BernardC]

19 hours ago, beewee said:

L-mount adapters (including teleconverters) are also currently not part of the L-mount alliance standards. So there’s no guaranteed compatibility on any adapters between L-mount alliance members regardless of whether it comes from Leica, Sigma, or Panasonic. The interoperability standards only cover the physical lens mount and communication protocols between body and lens for non-adapted, native L-mount lenses.

I don't know what is or isn't included in L-Mount standards, but I can tell you that teleconverters work this way for all brands. If you buy a Nikon teleconverter, it will come with a list of Nikon lenses that it is compatible with. That list never includes lenses made by third parties.

The main exception to this are cheap third-party teleconverters. Those converters were unacceptably bad, even in the film days. Most tests showed that you could get better results by cropping.

[Malabito]

1 hour ago, Luke_Miller said:

 

Yep. that's exactly how I have my camera setup, using the fn buttons to toggle the focus buttons, but that's just a workaround, it's not functional in fast-paced situations. That's precisely why I think the camera software was designed by engineers without the support of actual photographers.

The camera is a joy to shoot for static subjects.... for moving or fast paced ones it really has become a nightmare.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Malabito

[Luke_Miller]

27 minutes ago, Malabito said:

The camera is a joy to shoot for static subjects.... for moving or fast paced ones it really has become a nightmare.

In my case the SL and SL2 work for about 95% of what I shoot including the wedding party coming down the aisle.  For action I have other cameras.  PDAF is fast but not precise, while CDAF is precise but not fast. High performance autofocus systems use both. My Nikon Z6 can shift to CDAF-only for when I want pin-point focus on a static subject.  So while the current SL CDAF system tends to maximize the sharpness of the images taken with my Leica SL lenses, it is not ideal for all photographic endeavors.  

[Malabito]

31 minutes ago, Luke_Miller said:

In my case the SL and SL2 work for about 95% of what I shoot including the wedding party coming down the aisle.  For action, I have other cameras.  PDAF is fast but not precise, while CDAF is precise but not fast. High performance autofocus systems use both. My Nikon Z6 can shift to CDAF-only for when I want pin-point focus on a static subject.  So while the current SL CDAF system tends to maximize the sharpness of the images taken with my Leica SL lenses, it is not ideal for all photographic endeavors.  

its great that you managed to work around all the little focus issues of the camera. I am still trying to navigate them. the camera should work in your favor not against you.

Given I don't shoot events all the time, the good overcomes the bad, but if photography was my main sort of income, sl would be the last camera I be using.

 

[LocalHero1953]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Here's another one baffled by descriptions of Leica's AF as 'disastrous' or 'nightmare'. I don't doubt the personal experience (even if the comments are OTT), nor do I doubt that the AF will be greatly improved in the next iterations. But I use the SL2-S for theatre, with action, often on stage in rehearsals, and I also have a high success rate.

[Luke_Miller]

36 minutes ago, Malabito said:

Given I don't shoot events all the time, the good overcomes the bad, but if photography was my main sort of income, sl would be the last camera I be using.

I've been a Nikon shooter since 1974.  My current Nikons are cameras that allow me to get the shot in virtually any circumstance.  But they are tools with which I have no emotional attachment. My SL & SL2 along with my M bodies restored my passion for photography.  For paid work I tend to use my Nikons since my goal is to satisfy the client, not have fun.  But more and more the SLs are entering the mix as I develop more confidence in my proficiency with them.  Most of what I do now is personal work, so the Leicas fit right in. 

My biggest challenge in learning the SL autofocus system was due to all my years using Nikon autofocus.  The SL AF system can be set up just as I have set up my Nikons, but I quickly found out the results were different. I don't claim to have fully mastered it but am now getting results I am comfortable with. I wonder if some of those who a not getting the results they want have come from other systems and just haven't figured out how to make it work for them

No system is perfect. Just did a shoot with my SL2 that duplicated one I did last year with my Nikon Z6.  Both were race contestants photographed against the same busy race banner. Despite being in single point AF and carefully keeping the focus point on a face, I lost shots with both cameras due to focus being pulled off to the background.  I did like the ones from my SL2 and 35 Summicron-SL a lot better than those from the Z6 😃.

[John Smith]

1 hour ago, Malabito said:

its great that you managed to work around all the little focus issues of the camera. I am still trying to navigate them. the camera should work in your favor not against you.

Given I don't shoot events all the time, the good overcomes the bad, but if photography was my main sort of income, sl would be the last camera I be using.

 

Easily solved. Buy another camera system.

[beewee]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Here's another one baffled by descriptions of Leica's AF as 'disastrous' or 'nightmare'. I don't doubt the personal experience (even if the comments are OTT), nor do I doubt that the AF will be greatly improved in the next iterations. But I use the SL2-S for theatre, with action, often on stage in rehearsals, and I also have a high success rate.

I think it really depends on the person’s approach to how they use AF.

For someone who’s never shot MF and have only ever used reliable face detect AF or AFc from the likes of modern Sony cameras, the workflow would certainly not translate well to the SL line.

On the other hand for someone that’s shot for many years with MF and they’re only using AFs (which is very good on the SL2-S) to help with zone focus, hyperfocal shooting, and basically anything else that you’d otherwise use a rangefinder to focus for, even if it’s to capture things in motion, then a reliable AFs system is all you really need.

In the end, it comes down to the workflow. It sounds cliche to say, but it still comes down to the saying about how a good photographer with a crappy camera will take better photos than a crappy photographer with a good camera. And in the same vain, a photographer whose workflow depend heavily on assistance tools like a bomb proof AF system will struggle to shoot with a camera with finicky AF behaviour; while a photographer that can shoot in MF will be able to overcome much of the hurdles of a camera with a subpar AF system.

Edited January 7, 2023 by beewee

[LocalHero1953]

3 minutes ago, beewee said:

On the other hand for someone that’s shot for many years with MF and they’re only using AFs (which is very good on the SL2-S) to help with zone focus, hyperfocal shooting, and basically anything else that you’d otherwise use a rangefinder to focus for, even if it’s to capture things in motion, then a reliable AFs system is all you really need.

I have used AF on and off for 20 years, and almost entirely for the last 5 or so. I set iAF and face recognition on the SL2-S which uses AFc by default, but automatically switches back to AFs when it can't find eyes, faces or bodies (it looks for all three). I use the joystick to switch between bodies/faces. I agree that I would like to lock it to one person; I suspect the system is not good enough to identify one person well enough to track them (in a crowd), so locking on would wasted until the identification/tracking works better.

I would also like a single button toggle between iAF/face and single point or zone. In fact I would welcome all the improvements others ask for - like I would welcome improvements elsewhere.

[Malabito]

43 minutes ago, John Smith said:

Easily solved. Buy another camera system.

Thanks!!! How didn't think about that? Such a simple solution. Thanks for the great idea. 

[sillbeers15]

In this review, the future of Panasonic S series and Leica SL series autofocus is talked about. Personally, I am pretty damn sure what we see in the S5ll released PDAF + CDAF hybrid AF system will make its way into SL3 & S2/R and perhaps even a more robust / faster readout to differentiate itself from an entry level S5ll.

 

[Photoworks]

I have been using the SL2 cameras for most of 2 years 90% of the time.

AFs is good enough for most applications , I can work with it. AFc is of too with face body detection in daylight. Sometimes it looks in the back and does not see the person in the front.
Leica lenses have a complicated manual focus switch , I much prefer Sigma on the lens or Panasonic movement. holding down shutter and turning focus ring can make the change, but there is no way to keep it at full frame view, and the moments are gone.

As soon the light goes down in the evening, AF is not great, it is unusable in AFs for events where the flash is you primary light, focus click 3 times and one of the frames is always out of focus. hit rate becomes 70%.

If you are trying to use AFs at night or when you are at artificial light is only blue, the camera some how focus, but the constant focus wobble in EVF makes is very insecure to know if anything is focusing or not when you take the photo.

I understand that there are different setting for AF. but in any other camera I never had to change it and it worked fine.

Looks like the S5II system will be a game changer, does not look perfect, but over time it can be refined. Looks like it will have the same performance with adapted canon lenses.

[John Smith]

21 hours ago, Malabito said:

Thanks!!! How didn't think about that? Such a simple solution. Thanks for the great idea. 

You just hate seeing folks walking into avoidable disasters and unforced nightmares.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 1/8/2023 at 10:10 PM, Photoworks said:

 

If you are trying to use AFs at night or when you are at artificial light is only blue, the camera some how focus, but the constant focus wobble in EVF makes is very insecure to know if anything is focusing or not when you take the photo.

.

Are you using AFS or iAF when you see the wobble? This is an iAF and AFC thing where the DFD is doing it’s thing. AFS should not have the wobble. The wobble in the EVF is the worst!. In AFC I find I get the shot but you can’t be sure until you review the shots. It’s not confidence inspiring. If the subject is less than about 15 meters away and not trying to run in a pattern that suggests avoiding a sniper I’ve found the SL2 about the same as my A7R3 (admittedly not the latest or greatest AFC) in keeper rate. In AFS I’m close to 100% af accuracy, even in low light like a wedding reception.

Gordon

[Photoworks]

15 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Are you using AFS or iAF when you see the wobble? This is an iAF and AFC thing where the DFD is doing it’s thing. AFS should not have the wobble. The wobble in the EVF is the worst!. In AFC I find I get the shot but you can’t be sure until you review the shots. It’s not confidence inspiring. If the subject is less than about 15 meters away and not trying to run in a pattern that suggests avoiding a sniper I’ve found the SL2 about the same as my A7R3 (admittedly not the latest or greatest AFC) in keeper rate. In AFS I’m close to 100% af accuracy, even in low light like a wedding reception.

Gordon

yes the wobble is in AFs

On low light event Sl2 and 24-90 at f4 I see 1/3  1/125  iso 1600 with flash of the images not in focus at AFs. I keep refocusing and shooting 3-4 images of a group because they are always a some that need to be deleted. It is the usual hunting front focus issue. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

22 hours ago, Photoworks said:

yes the wobble is in AFs

On low light event Sl2 and 24-90 at f4 I see 1/3  1/125  iso 1600 with flash of the images not in focus at AFs. I keep refocusing and shooting 3-4 images of a group because they are always a some that need to be deleted. It is the usual hunting front focus issue. 

That’s weird. I’ve not had that in AFS. Especially with the 24-90, which has really good AFS for me, even in dim reception venues. I only see the DFD wobble in iAF or AFC. I was regularly at ISO 1600 and 1.30th in receptions with little or no issues. The camera should be good to EV -6. I do focus on the hairline, for contrast, rather than the face though and use a small box rather than a point.

I have no idea what’s going on but you and I are having completely different experiences.

Gordon

p.s. that’s with the SF60.

Edited January 10, 2023 by FlashGordonPhotography

[frame-it]

On 12/29/2022 at 9:18 PM, sometimesmaybe said:

when Fuji introduced PDAF to the GFX100/s, the GF110mm needed a firmware update

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

and they uploaded new firmware for the lenses, as expected

 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Photoworks]

2 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

That’s weird. I’ve not had that in AFS. Especially with the 24-90, which has really good AFS for me, even in dim reception venues. I only see the DFD wobble in iAF or AFC. I was regularly at ISO 1600 and 1.30th in receptions with little or no issues. The camera should be good to EV -6. I do focus on the hairline, for contrast, rather than the face though and use a small box rather than a point.

I have no idea what’s going on but you and I are having completely different experiences.

Gordon

p.s. that’s with the SF60.

to clarify wobble is only AFc. I type incorrectly.

Yes SF60 on events. I was using a large box in the middle to focus. AFs

2 cameras with similar setup