Stonewall Brigade Posted December 21, 2022 Share #1 Posted December 21, 2022 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Opinion requested. I have found for sale a mint Leitz Wetzler Elmarit 90mm f/2.8 lens, Mandler design, with a serial number dated to 1965. The price is $400, and includes the original clear plastic bubble mount and cover, but does not have a lens hood. The focus movement feels very smooth like a new Leica lens, and the glass looks to be clear with no dust or fungus. Like new. My question or concern relates to the probable image quality when mounted on my M11. Probably lower is contrast and less sharp compared to a newer lens? Would you buy it for $400? My current longest lens is a relatively new Summarit 75mm lens. Comments are appreciated. Edited December 21, 2022 by Stonewall Brigade added a photo Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 21, 2022 Posted December 21, 2022 Hi Stonewall Brigade, Take a look here Leitz Wetzler Elmarit 90mm f/2.8 lens from 1965 (Mandler design). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lct Posted December 21, 2022 Share #2 Posted December 21, 2022 (edited) If you mean Elmarit 90/2.8 v1 (11129) it is not a Mandler design AFAIK but it is a fine lens indeed. Solid as a tank, its optical cell can be removed to be used with an optical Visoflex. IQ wise it is a bit soft at f/2.8 so it is a fine lens for gentle portraits. Otherwise a sharp lens from f/4 to f/16 with very little vignetting and distortion. Cannot be 6-bit coded. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited December 21, 2022 by lct 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/356471-leitz-wetzler-elmarit-90mm-f28-lens-from-1965-mandler-design/?do=findComment&comment=4608528'>More sharing options...
tedd Posted December 21, 2022 Share #3 Posted December 21, 2022 I liked mine way more than the Tele-Elmarit thin that I replaced it with. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted December 21, 2022 Share #4 Posted December 21, 2022 (edited) In 1965, Leitz was selling four different 90mm lenses for M cameras, of which two were f/2.8: - Elmarit (v.1) Wetzlar design and manufacture (not Mandler) - shown in lct's post above - Tele-Elmarit (v.1) from Canada and Wetzlar, and designed by Walter Mandler - much shorter, with "telephoto" construction (physical length less than the nominal focal length) so that it could still fit in a camera never-ready case when mounted on a camera (i.e. not much longer than a 50mm Summilux). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The plain Elmarit (Wetzlar) is considered slightly better than the Tele-Elmarit (Mandler), due to optical compromises needed to shrink the size of the TE so much. But that will mostly be at the larger apertures. At f/5.6 both have very good resolution, but as you suggest, a bit lower contrast due to single-coatings, that are also 57 years old now. While we are not allowed to formally appraise such things, the price you mention is well within the reasonable USA range for either lens type, if in good condition. Personally, I have all the 90s I want, but they are both decent "cheap thrills" for experimenting with a Leica-made 90 f/2.8 for the first time (or even for a long time), if stopped down a little. Even on an M11. Edited December 21, 2022 by adan 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The plain Elmarit (Wetzlar) is considered slightly better than the Tele-Elmarit (Mandler), due to optical compromises needed to shrink the size of the TE so much. But that will mostly be at the larger apertures. At f/5.6 both have very good resolution, but as you suggest, a bit lower contrast due to single-coatings, that are also 57 years old now. While we are not allowed to formally appraise such things, the price you mention is well within the reasonable USA range for either lens type, if in good condition. Personally, I have all the 90s I want, but they are both decent "cheap thrills" for experimenting with a Leica-made 90 f/2.8 for the first time (or even for a long time), if stopped down a little. Even on an M11. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/356471-leitz-wetzler-elmarit-90mm-f28-lens-from-1965-mandler-design/?do=findComment&comment=4608787'>More sharing options...
spydrxx Posted December 21, 2022 Share #5 Posted December 21, 2022 Having owned this lens for a number of years, I can attest to it being a fine lens. Will it have lower contrast on your M11, probably slight, but easily compensated for in post processing. As far as sharpness goes, I think, at least in the central part of the image you would have to have an enormous enlargement to notice the difference from a more modern lens...but perhaps the edges might be a little less sharp. However, the price seems a little high, at least in comparison to recent Ebay sales. As mentioned above, a feature I really liked was the ability to detach the head for use with the Visoflex or bellows. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Brown Posted December 21, 2022 Share #6 Posted December 21, 2022 For 400$ just buy it. It will be nothing like your Summarit, but that is good. Always great to have a character lens and a clinical lens handy 😊. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted December 21, 2022 Share #7 Posted December 21, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) It is a sort of "fun fact" about the first 1:2.8/90mm Elmarit (without Tele-) that the later production during the sixties was built by Schneider Kreuznach. It was an original Leitz design and the first batches during the 50s were produced by Leitz. Why they gave the later production to Schneider is unclear, and it was even concealed, as the lens originally has a Schneider number on the front ring, which was hidden by a "sticker" applied in the Leitz factory. One may easily find a hood (IROOA or 12575) on the second hand market or even brand new as a spare part for the 1:4/90mm Macro-Elmar. Since the lens is longer than its contemporaries for 90mm it is generally not much liked and a sort of "Cinderella" among all lenses for the Leica, which is good for prices on the second hand market. I think it's better not to deal too much with its real qualities since this would have an effect on prices one day. So even when I call it my real favorite, let's say it's a rather mediocre lens. 🤭 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpultorak Posted December 21, 2022 Share #8 Posted December 21, 2022 If you don’t have a 90mm just buy it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 21, 2022 Share #9 Posted December 21, 2022 17 minutes ago, UliWer said: One may easily find a hood (IROOA or 12575) on the second hand market or even brand new as a spare part for the 1:4/90mm Macro-Elmar. Exactly. 90/2.8 v1 and 90/4 macro with their 12575 hood. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/356471-leitz-wetzler-elmarit-90mm-f28-lens-from-1965-mandler-design/?do=findComment&comment=4609787'>More sharing options...
pegelli Posted December 21, 2022 Share #10 Posted December 21, 2022 According to the Leica wiki it is a Mandler design ❓ Black ones usually go for a bit more than the silver ones. I recently bought a nice copy silver version (no haze, smooth focus and very few use marks on the barrel) of the Elmarit 90/2.8 (serial # dated 1961, left one of the photo posted by lct above) for € 250 with both caps, no hood and no bubble. The shop had a black version in a very similar state which they offered for € 400, but since I didn't care about the colour I got the cheaper one. They also had several less nice silver versions (varying degrees of haze and/or bumps) ranging from € 160 to € 220. So it really depended on the colour and state of the lens what the price was. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 21, 2022 Share #11 Posted December 21, 2022 15 minutes ago, pegelli said: According to the Leica wiki it is a Mandler design No one is immune to error... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegelli Posted December 21, 2022 Share #12 Posted December 21, 2022 1 minute ago, lct said: No one is immune to error... Obviously, but who is right and where can we find the best (or better) information? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 21, 2022 Share #13 Posted December 21, 2022 26 minutes ago, pegelli said: Obviously, but who is right and where can we find the best (or better) information? You mean besides the LUF? Here for instance. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted December 21, 2022 Share #14 Posted December 21, 2022 (edited) Other circumstantial evidence: 1) in his Leica Lens Compendium (Appendix B), Erwin Puts assigns the first 90mm Elmarit design to Leitz Wetzlar (and the Tele-Elmarits to Leitz Canada/Dr. Mandler). 2) the optical design of the first 90mm Elmarit is a modified Hektor design of five elements in three groups. This was not a type Dr. Mandler ever used anywhere else (he had an "inordinate fondness" for Double-Gauss or Sonnar-type designs for longer lenses - he wrote his doctoral dissertation on the DG formula). But was rather commonly used by Leitz Wetzlar (50mm Hektor, 73mm Hektor, 90mm Thambar). The "Hektorish" 90mm v.1 design can be seen here: https://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/90mm-f28-elmarit.htm Compare to 73mm Hektor - Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! and 90mm Thambar (sorry, low res is burned into the original ) I.E. the 90mm Elmarit v.1 does not match "the brush strokes" in Mandler's known other works. Edited December 21, 2022 by adan 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! and 90mm Thambar (sorry, low res is burned into the original ) I.E. the 90mm Elmarit v.1 does not match "the brush strokes" in Mandler's known other works. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/356471-leitz-wetzler-elmarit-90mm-f28-lens-from-1965-mandler-design/?do=findComment&comment=4609893'>More sharing options...
pegelli Posted December 22, 2022 Share #15 Posted December 22, 2022 @lct, @adan, thanks for the link to the Walter Mandler eulogy and the other information. I guess the Wiki here must be wrong then Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_sure Posted December 22, 2022 Share #16 Posted December 22, 2022 Hello, As it is my first post, I would like first to thank the many contributors that give very valuable information. In the page linked by adan above, Ken Rockwell says the elmarit «has a load of flare», even with the 12575 hood. What is your experience with flare from this lens? And how does it compare to the tele-elmarit-M (thin version), which generates more flare than one may wish? Is it worse than the tele-elmarit-M? @tedd may I ask why you prefer the elmarit to the tele-elmarit-M? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 22, 2022 Share #17 Posted December 22, 2022 Don’t believe everything Ken Rockwell says…. Obviously older coatings are less effective than present-day ones. This lens is capable of very good images. But using simple photographic techniques like avoiding flare by slightly shifting position, using your left hand as a sun shade or even using flare creatively will help. There are some pretty good photographs made in 1955 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted December 22, 2022 Share #18 Posted December 22, 2022 (edited) I am not able to cause any flare with this lens (first 90mm Elmarit). Two quick examples, both at f/2.8 without hood: Lamp close at the upper left: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Sun immediately above the frame: Though according to my intention not to cause any price increase I'll say: yes it might flare. Edited December 22, 2022 by UliWer 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Sun immediately above the frame: Though according to my intention not to cause any price increase I'll say: yes it might flare. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/356471-leitz-wetzler-elmarit-90mm-f28-lens-from-1965-mandler-design/?do=findComment&comment=4610582'>More sharing options...
lct Posted December 22, 2022 Share #19 Posted December 22, 2022 The Elmarit 90/2.8 v1 flares a bit in my experience but less so than the "thin" Tele-Elmarit 90/2.8. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 22, 2022 Share #20 Posted December 22, 2022 (edited) Did this comparo 15 years ago with an Epson R-D1 but it would not expect significant differences on digital Ms. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited December 22, 2022 by lct Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/356471-leitz-wetzler-elmarit-90mm-f28-lens-from-1965-mandler-design/?do=findComment&comment=4610744'>More sharing options...
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