Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[Matlock]

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38 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

"Like we see other industries cutting corners to save money, I wonder if something similar is happening to film."

Wonder the same thing re film... though my original M6 doesn't scratch current Ilford HP5/FP4.  I've put 7-8 rolls of each through it recently - all self developed.  I have some new rolls of TriX but haven't shot any of it yet.  

I think there may be some mileage in this. Back in 1960 I borrowed my father's Voigtlander Brilliant which had a sticking film roller. Kodak Tri X was fine but Ilford FP3 would always come out covered in scratches, obviously these were on the emulsion side but it does show that there is a variation between different films. However I do think the problem goes beyond just emulsion types, it will be interesting to see how this all pans out.

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2 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

I read in one of the many rave articles/reviews of the new M6 that all Leica film camera machinery was moved to Portugal many years ago.  Assuming that is correct, all the film cameras have been made there since then... whenever "then" was.  

That may not be a bad thing necessarily but if a repair with this current issue goes to Germany then it might be harder to track down the cause if all of the machinery is at a different location.

[earleygallery]

14 hours ago, hdmesa said:

"Cleaning and adjusting pressure plate" was Leica's first attempt to fix Huss' camera. Replacing the pressure plate was what someone reported DAG said they would do.

Too bad they didn't reroute his camera to one of the know-it-alls from this thread, though 🤨

OK, did 'cleaning and adjusting' the pressure plate fix the problem? Did replacing the pressure plate work?

As I've already pointed out, the pressure plate doesn't really press on the film so a sharp point on one would have to be very sharp and very pointy to cause scratches, which I'm sure anyone would see/feel straight away.

Edited February 7, 2023 by earleygallery

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, earleygallery said:

OK, did 'cleaning and adjusting' the pressure plate fix the problem? 

I think you should be trolling Leica about this, not me. The point was it's the first thing on their list to do when film is being scratched. Doesn't that tell you they often find it to be the cause?

1 hour ago, earleygallery said:

Did replacing the pressure plate work?

They didn't replace Huss' pressure plate, so how would we know? Others have reported that replacing the pressure plate did work. Don at DAG: his go-to idea was to replace the pressure plate. I'm not saying it absolutely was the issue, I'm saying that many in this thread are speaking down to those suggesting it could be the pressure plate as if they are stupid children who just don't get it.

1 hour ago, earleygallery said:

As I've already pointed out, the pressure plate doesn't really press on the film so a sharp point on one would have to be very sharp and very pointy to cause scratches, which I'm sure anyone would see/feel straight away.

Your thinking regarding the pressure plate is obtuse. Increased pressure on the plate increases tension on the film, right? Could that in turn cause issues with scratching at other points in the film movement? If the pressure plate turns out to be the cause, that doesn't necessitate it being the part that's actually scratching the film.

[hdmesa]

^ My point is none of us know for sure what's causing the film to be scratched, but we also can't rule out anything yet:

• Modern film emulsion thickness sucks and is showing issues with some M bodies
• Massive batches of film canisters across multiple brands with similar points of defect in the felt or cartridge
• Labs are scratching the film
• Users are scratching the film (same squeegee burr hitting the same part of the frame when drying the film, etc.)
• Pressure plate either directly or indirectly
• Rewind lever not fully releasing the film and the film being rewound under too much pressure (scratching at the cartridge felt or anywhere else)
• Other contact points in the film path

For all we know, some M bodies have always scratched film, but no one noticed until recently.

Etc.

(Some of the above have been ruled out for those that have proven the film scratches are present before developing.)

Edited February 7, 2023 by hdmesa
grammar

[Huss]

5 hours ago, hdmesa said:

If the pressure plate is the cause, it still may not be the pressure plate itself that is scratching the film. Having the film under slightly too much tension could be forcing the scratch at another point in the film route. Just guessing, of course.

Good news. Hopefully Leica can figure out what's causing some of them to scratch and not others.

I have to wonder if current production film is softer for some reason due to changes to the film itself and/or the emulsion. Like we see other industries cutting corners to save money, I wonder if something similar is happening to film.

I've been using current production film in my other Ms with zero issues.  Also in my new to me Olympus XA2, a roll in my Agfa Optima 1535, multiple rolls in beat up Nikon D80s which I recently acquired.  A few in Konica C35 EF3s. And no film scratching anywhere.  Apart from my 2022 Leica M6.

[hdmesa]

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19 minutes ago, Huss said:

I've been using current production film in my other Ms with zero issues.  Also in my new to me Olympus XA2, a roll in my Agfa Optima 1535, multiple rolls in beat up Nikon D80s which I recently acquired.  A few in Konica C35 EF3s. And no film scratching anywhere.  Apart from my 2022 Leica M6.

Yes, for sure. I was just speculating that if modern film was somehow different, it might be showing issues specifically with M bodies that have one or more components slightly out of spec.

[earleygallery]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

Your thinking regarding the pressure plate is obtuse. Increased pressure on the plate increases tension on the film, right? Could that in turn cause issues with scratching at other points in the film movement? If the pressure plate turns out to be the cause, that doesn't necessitate it being the part that's actually scratching the film.

Errr, no, it doesn't - as I have explained above if you bothered to read the thread. 

I guess it proves you're right about me being a 'know it all' though. Thanks.

Edited February 7, 2023 by earleygallery

[hdmesa]

4 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

Errr, no, it doesn't - as I have explained above if you bothered to read the thread. 

I guess it proves you're right about me being a 'know it all' though. Thanks.

Pretty sure that you're the one not reading for context here. Moving you to my ignore list.

[earleygallery]

4 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Pretty sure that you're the one not reading for context here. Moving you to my ignore list.

This has cheered me up today. Love it, pointed out being wrong so hit ignore!

[hdmesa]

8 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

This has cheered me up today. Love it, pointed out being wrong so hit ignore!

Oh, you're not there yet. I'm still unhiding you from this conversation as we go along. I just don't want to be involved in future discussions with you.

Regarding the pressure plate, I'd love for you to call up Don at DAG and argue with him about why think replacing the pressure plate can never fix a camera that is scratching film – you who have probably never repaired an M camera in your life. LOVE to hear how that conversation goes.

[Anbaric]

Could the effect perhaps be due to coronavirus particles in the air, scratching the emulsion with their 'spike' proteins? Anyone who thinks they might be infected should hold their breath when loading film, and conduct a lateral flow test if the scratches persist.

[Huss]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

Yes, for sure. I was just speculating that if modern film was somehow different, it might be showing issues specifically with M bodies that have one or more components slightly out of spec.

There is no such thing as modern film.  It's an outdated, archaic process that only fools still adhere too!  

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, Huss said:

There is no such thing as modern film.  It's an outdated, archaic process that only fools still adhere too!  

True true.

Modern film. Film produced after the start of the pandemic when everyone started cutting corners on things.

[Huss]

Slight off topic - quite a few places are now spooling Kodak Aerocolor IV 2460 color negative aerial photography film in 36 exp rolls.  Strangely enough this is regular production film - I had never heard of it!  It is a really good very fine grain ISO 100 film with excellent colours.

Available from a few places including popho.ca

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4 hours ago, Huss said:

Slight off topic - quite a few places are now spooling Kodak Aerocolor IV 2460 color negative aerial photography film in 36 exp rolls.  Strangely enough this is regular production film - I had never heard of it!  It is a really good very fine grain ISO 100 film with excellent colours.

Available from a few places including popho.ca

Still kinda pricey. I'll stick to Fuji that I can buy locally ($27/3 pack) until I can find Kodak under $10/roll or until Fuji is more than $10/roll then maybe switch back to Kodak. 

[mshchem]

I am going to wait on the new M6. I bought a MP new from Leica Manchester thanks to Huss for the tip on exchange rates. So I have a new camera, got that itch scratched. Only Leica I've ever bought new.

In the meantime I bought a black chrome M6ttl to go with my silver M6ttl (it's in the shop light meter isn't timing out). I'm very happy with my 1999 M6ttl, beautiful camera.

I figure by the time I replenish my "mad money" Leica will have the bugs worked out.

I am shocked by the issues Leica is having. 

Huss, they should give you something, free lifetime warranty, would be a good place to start. 

Still love these cameras and lenses!

[charlesphoto99]

I bought an R8 once. It scratched film. It was a known problem with the early batches of the R8. It wasn't the pressure plate. I'll just throw that out there for another point to chew on. 

[hdmesa]

36 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I bought an R8 once. It scratched film. It was a known problem with the early batches of the R8. It wasn't the pressure plate. I'll just throw that out there for another point to chew on. 

From a 2001 post about the R8 issue below in case it helps add context:

There is a plastic piece on the left side of the film pressure plate held down by 2 machine screws. This piece covers the film advance indicator (also there is a cam switch under it). I believe Leica used the wrong material for this part. After about 150 rolls went through the camera, this piece start wearing out.If you use a loupe to look at this piece, you can see its rough surface. 
 
I did a quick fix by putting some cellophane tape over the piece. I bought my second R8 body couple months ago. Leica changed their design on this piece. Instead of using different material, they sanded down the area that will be weared out by film transportation. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[charlesphoto99]

Yeah, if I recall I taped over that piece myself. Of course the wind up mechanism for the R's was entirely different from the M, but the point is it doesn't necessarily HAVE to be the  pressure plate (which would be my first thought, and was at the time with the R8).