Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[jaapv]

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11 hours ago, GarageBoy said:

What is with new cameras scratching film? (Rolleiflex HY6 has a reputation too) 

Especially bad considering Leica has pretty much made the same camera since 1954. Throw in the Leica M7 issues (DX reader), and no longer available parts for M6 meters that have been dying and I guess I'll stick with older non metered models for the time being

Given that the M6 was produced until 1998, complaining about unavailability of parts seems a bit unreasonable. Added to which, if the light meter dies you are left with... a non metered camera. 

[Erato]

FYR.

Cross function inspection(including film development) within one day is still possible?

IMHO, don't let it burn, get someone supervision on this and GTD.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Erato
Reference time line revised to 14:39 which is relevant to film development

[Huss]

5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

My MP BP arrived this morning and I've just finished an initial check.
TL/DR: I haven't identified any problems, whether film scratching, RF vertical misalignment, loose mount, or anything else.

I don't want to hijack the OP's thread, or downplay his issues, but since recent reports have covered MP and M6, it may be helpful if these things are all in one thread.

Checks and comments:

• The QC card and all the stickers on the box are dated 20 January 2023.
• Checked pressure plate surface and edges with finger and thumbnail, and torch. No obvious blemishes.
• The upper pair of recessed screws on the pressure plate are definitely within the film path.
• Loaded a sacrificial roll of 36 exposure, leaving the back flap open.
• Had a good look at all the possible places of contact of the back of the film with camera parts and couldn't see any, other than the pressure plate. Any tension in the film during advancing or rewinding ought to pull the film down, away from the points of contact (other than the pressure plate).
• With shutter on B, checked that the pressure plate actually did press the film forward - it did, slightly.
• Still with the back open, I wound on half a dozen frames, then wound back again. I could see no marks on the back of the film.
• With the back closed, wound on a dozen frames, then opened the back and rewound. I could see no marks on the back of the film.
• With the back closed, wound on till I felt resistance at about 38 exposures, then rewound and removed the film. Pulled it out and checked its length, back and front. No sign of scratches.
• I sensed no unwillingness of the rewind lever to release the film transport. The rewind lever simply moved to the correct position, where there was no play. Nor was there any sudden release of tension with the rewind lever, even though my final check involved running till the advance lever would not advance any more.

All observations are dependent on my eyesight, obviously.
I hope this will be helpful.

Congrats!  I hope everything is perfect.

I actually prefer my MP to my M6 - issues not withstanding.  Same camera, but I find the solid film advance lever nicer to use than the hinged one, and the BP finish is nicer to hold. That of course is all IMO!

My MP has the sharkskin finish - the current MP/M-A/M6 have the nicer leather.

As for my M6 - waiting to hear back as to what Leica will do about it.

[hdmesa]

5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

...

• Had a good look at all the possible places of contact of the back of the film with camera parts and couldn't see any, other than the pressure plate. Any tension in the film during advancing or rewinding ought to pull the film down, away from the points of contact (other than the pressure plate).

...

Any tension during rewind could put pressure on the cartridge opening, which could scratch the film where the felt is weakest. My scratches were not in the same places every time like Huss' were, so that may be a more plausible point of failure in my case.

[LocalHero1953]

8 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Any tension during rewind could put pressure on the cartridge opening, which could scratch the film where the felt is weakest. My scratches were not in the same places every time like Huss' were, so that may be a more plausible point of failure in my case.

Were yours on the back, like his? In which case tension would draw the film 'down' (towards the lens), taking the back of the film away from the cartridge opening. 

[Huss]

3 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Were yours on the back, like his? In which case tension would draw the film 'down' (towards the lens), taking the back of the film away from the cartridge opening. 

My scratches are on the shiny side of the film.

[hdmesa]

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32 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Were yours on the back, like his? In which case tension would draw the film 'down' (towards the lens), taking the back of the film away from the cartridge opening. 

Yes, it was the back. Something was scratching my film when rewound under tension. I don't know that the film would be pulled away from anything – it's all sandwiched in there pretty tight.

[LocalHero1953]

8 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Yes, it was the back. Something was scratching my film when rewound under tension. I don't know that the film would be pulled away from anything – it's all sandwiched in there pretty tight.

If there's no tension applied from either end then the film can 'bulge' towards the back, with its natural curvature. This certainly happens at the take-up spool end because without tension there's a tendency for the film to come loose on the sprockets. It's more difficult to see exactly what happens when loose or tensed at the cartridge end, where there are no sprockets.
I have no theory about how the scratches occur - these are just observations.

[Huss]

I just received my UPS 2 day label to ship it back to Leica.  They said they will take care of it immediately, so that sounds better than the last 6 week wait.

Fingers crossed.

[lmans]

Hope so...as even a small dust issue should be checked out when you send it back to them, otherwise....what have they done? Can you request a more 'detailed' account of what they perform since this is your second attempt? Perhaps a 'nice letter'.....a nice letter Huss (check yourself here) and maybe provide some options on the letter as to what they did. I know, you shouldn't have to do this but since it didn't really work last time, why not enter round two a bit differently. 

[mshchem]

Huss, maybe send them a dozen rolls of Kentmere to check their work. Oh my!!

I'm waiting to get one of these, probably should have my head examined. My new MP black paint hasn't scratched yet. 🤞

[Huss]

18 hours ago, mshchem said:

Huss, maybe send them a dozen rolls of Kentmere to check their work. Oh my!!

I'm waiting to get one of these, probably should have my head examined. My new MP black paint hasn't scratched yet. 🤞

The reason I/we stick with these cameras is because when you have a good one (and most will be), there is absolutely nothing out there that compares.  Ms are just awesome to use.  And yeah I've owned the CLE, Bessas, ZM Ikon, Nikon RF, Canon RF, crappy Soviet RFs...   Leica Ms are in a league of their own.

[250swb]

22 hours ago, lmans said:

Hope so...as even a small dust issue should be checked out when you send it back to them, otherwise....what have they done? Can you request a more 'detailed' account of what they perform since this is your second attempt? Perhaps a 'nice letter'.....a nice letter Huss (check yourself here) and maybe provide some options on the letter as to what they did. I know, you shouldn't have to do this but since it didn't really work last time, why not enter round two a bit differently. 

I imagine a Leica repair techie has a crib sheet to go through, and they are paid employees doing a job like many workers that clock off on Friday teatime and not being paid to go fire fighting outside of their remit. Which in itself is bad for a company that claims to go the extra mile to make the best cameras in the world. So while it's been argued in this thread 'why should the user do any extra work to get it fixed', we are still in the situation of 'it is what it is'. And if Leica can't identify the problem the next person with a new camera that scratches should probably do a full 'how many ways to abuse film in a Leica M6 with the back opened and closed' and compare those intentional scratches with what comes through the camera normally. There has to be a correlation.

[LuckySquirrel]

Further update

Unfortunately it looks like the new camera is scratching as well. I checked with two new rolls of HP5 (just because these are the cheapest I have at home), and I'm getting a new scratch pattern, but one that is consistent across both rolls with the new camera. I have asked the retailer if I can get on a Zoom call with them to walk through my process but I'm not sure where I would be going wrong. 

The process I use to load film is the same as that outlined in the user manual I believe:

1. Insert film with the leader according to the diagram on the camera; put on base plate
2. Cock the shutter & press the shutter release button
3. Turn the rewind knob until there is slight tension
4. Cock the shutter again and verify that the rewind knob turns, indicating the film is loaded properly
5. After all shots are taken (5-10 in this case for testing purposes), press the rewind release lever
6. Turn the rewind knob until the film is released

At this point I'm not sure what I should do:

• Am I being too particular about what to expect from the camera? Is it likely that these scratches would show on developed film?
• Should I see if the retailer will exchange for yet another new camera? 
• In the event that the retailer wants me to go through the warranty process, is it better for me to try to go through warranty, or should I just send it directly to DAG or Youxin Ye? After seeing what Huss went through, I'm not sure if it would be better to just go 3rd party and ensure that everything is fixed so I can move on haha.
• Return the camera and just go for a used/older Leica at this point?

Right now it's feeling like I'm 0/2 in my attempt to get a working Leica, and is definitely leaving a sour taste overall. The retailer has been fantastic to work with and I don't blame them at all, but feeling like Leica definitely needs to institute better/working QC procedures.

Here is what I am currently seeing (and the lines are consistent throughout the length of the film):

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[williamj]

Maybe they're only counting a scratch in the emulsion as a scratch. I mean they said they tested it and it didn't scratch. As I've posted elsewhere both my IIIf from 1951 and my M3 from 1956 leave fine hairline scratches on the back of the film that you can only see if you hold it exactly in the right place but it has no effect on the emulsion or the pictures. Maybe shoot some pictures and develop the film? See if you can see scratches in the developed images?

 

 

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Edited February 1, 2023 by williamj

[Huss]

3 hours ago, LuckySquirrel said:

Further update

Unfortunately it looks like the new camera is scratching as well. I checked with two new rolls of HP5 (just because these are the cheapest I have at home), and I'm getting a new scratch pattern, but one that is consistent across both rolls with the new camera. I have asked the retailer if I can get on a Zoom call with them to walk through my process but I'm not sure where I would be going wrong. 

The process I use to load film is the same as that outlined in the user manual I believe:

1. Insert film with the leader according to the diagram on the camera; put on base plate
2. Cock the shutter & press the shutter release button
3. Turn the rewind knob until there is slight tension
4. Cock the shutter again and verify that the rewind knob turns, indicating the film is loaded properly
5. After all shots are taken (5-10 in this case for testing purposes), press the rewind release lever
6. Turn the rewind knob until the film is released

At this point I'm not sure what I should do:

• Am I being too particular about what to expect from the camera? Is it likely that these scratches would show on developed film?
• Should I see if the retailer will exchange for yet another new camera? 
• In the event that the retailer wants me to go through the warranty process, is it better for me to try to go through warranty, or should I just send it directly to DAG or Youxin Ye? After seeing what Huss went through, I'm not sure if it would be better to just go 3rd party and ensure that everything is fixed so I can move on haha.
• Return the camera and just go for a used/older Leica at this point?

Right now it's feeling like I'm 0/2 in my attempt to get a working Leica, and is definitely leaving a sour taste overall. The retailer has been fantastic to work with and I don't blame them at all, but feeling like Leica definitely needs to institute better/working QC procedures.

Here is what I am currently seeing (and the lines are consistent throughout the length of the film):

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That's pretty much identical to what mine is doing.  And it does show up if you shoot B&W film.  With colour print film, the digital ICE removes scratches and may be able to mask this.  But that is not acceptable, given that this camera costs $5600, and you can buy a new Kodak or Ilford plastic camera for $30 that does not scratch film.

Your shop that tested it and said it was fine obviously did not examine the film sufficiently.  I'm also wondering if some happy customers do not realize that their cameras are scratching film because they are shooting C41 and the digital ICE is covering up the issue.

[Huss]

On 1/21/2023 at 6:46 PM, Huss said:

TY!  And congrats.

14 ok, 7 not.

p.s a little surprised your film advance is a bit stiff.  Mine was perfect, like all my other Ms.

Ok...  jonnyc has reported his new camera scratches, and luckysquirrel has reported that his REPLACEMENT camera also scratches.

This is looking really not very good.

14 ok, 9 not.

[LocalHero1953]

6 hours ago, LuckySquirrel said:

Further update

Unfortunately it looks like the new camera is scratching as well. I checked with two new rolls of HP5 (just because these are the cheapest I have at home), and I'm getting a new scratch pattern, but one that is consistent across both rolls with the new camera. I have asked the retailer if I can get on a Zoom call with them to walk through my process but I'm not sure where I would be going wrong. 

The process I use to load film is the same as that outlined in the user manual I believe:

1. Insert film with the leader according to the diagram on the camera; put on base plate
2. Cock the shutter & press the shutter release button
3. Turn the rewind knob until there is slight tension
4. Cock the shutter again and verify that the rewind knob turns, indicating the film is loaded properly
5. After all shots are taken (5-10 in this case for testing purposes), press the rewind release lever
6. Turn the rewind knob until the film is released

At this point I'm not sure what I should do:

• Am I being too particular about what to expect from the camera? Is it likely that these scratches would show on developed film?
• Should I see if the retailer will exchange for yet another new camera? 
• In the event that the retailer wants me to go through the warranty process, is it better for me to try to go through warranty, or should I just send it directly to DAG or Youxin Ye? After seeing what Huss went through, I'm not sure if it would be better to just go 3rd party and ensure that everything is fixed so I can move on haha.
• Return the camera and just go for a used/older Leica at this point?

Right now it's feeling like I'm 0/2 in my attempt to get a working Leica, and is definitely leaving a sour taste overall. The retailer has been fantastic to work with and I don't blame them at all, but feeling like Leica definitely needs to institute better/working QC procedures.

Here is what I am currently seeing (and the lines are consistent throughout the length of the film):

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You mark just one scratch - or is this just the visible part of the scratch extending the full length of the film? (Both films). 
If it is at just one location on each film, whereabouts is it in relation to the leader?
Can you measure up the vertical position of the scratch and see where it occurs on the pressure plate (if that is the cause)? Any sign of a blemish, detectable with a finger nail?

Edited February 1, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[LocalHero1953]

The great thing about the forum ignore feature is that it allows you to eliminate posts from those who have nothing to contribute, but are just noise. A bit like ICE software, it cleans up the thread. Bye, @Mooshoepork! Have a nice day.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Matlock]

55 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The great thing about the forum ignore feature is that it allows you to eliminate posts from those who have nothing to contribute, but are just noise. A bit like ICE software, it cleans up the thread. Bye, @Mooshoepork! Have a nice day.

Well said.