Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[Steve Ricoh]

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Jesus, this is beyond bad!

[lmans]

No...this is a few people that are active on this forum. Keep that in mind. I am not saying there is no problem, but at times this forum makes it look like every camera coming off the line has an issue. I think we need to at least 'attempt' to get realistic . 

[Huss]

3 hours ago, lmans said:

No...this is a few people that are active on this forum. Keep that in mind. I am not saying there is no problem, but at times this forum makes it look like every camera coming off the line has an issue. I think we need to at least 'attempt' to get realistic . 

Well how about this then, Leica returned my camera not fixed.  It scratches in the exact same places.  It's almost as if they didn't do anything.  Nah, I'll amend that, they didn't do anything.  Brand new camera, scratches film.  6 week wait, get the camera back un-repaired.  

Pathetic.

[Huss]

Tested my camera.  Leica did not fix anything.  It scratches the film in the exact same places.  I tested with two rolls - one I developed so I have actual pictures to show, and the other I fed through the camera so you can see the scratches on the undeveloped film.

When the camera was sent in for repair, I included a roll of undeveloped film that had the scratches, so you know, they could see them.

Obviously they did not do anything, and did not test anything.  Wasted 6 weeks and now it needs to go back.

What a bunch of clowns.  I am, not happy...

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[Crem]

19 minutes ago, Huss said:

Tested my camera.  Leica did not fix anything.  It scratches the film in the exact same places.  I tested with two rolls - one I developed so I have actual pictures to show, and the other I fed through the camera so you can see the scratches on the undeveloped film.

When the camera was sent in for repair, I included a roll of undeveloped film that had the scratches, so you know, they could see them.

Obviously they did not do anything, and did not test anything.  Wasted 6 weeks and now it needs to go back.

What a bunch of clowns.  I am, not happy...

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@Huss My god what a bunch of clowns. If/when you are up in Northern California the beers/wine or whatever are on me. Unfortunately I had a bad feeling this was going to happen because I believe the Leica techs are only allowed to swap parts and not do actual repairs. It sounded like they didn't do any part swaps with your camera. What is your plan? As much as it sucks, I suspect the easiest option is to just repair it yourself or send it to someone like DAG. My guess is DAG would fix this ASAP, tell us if it's basically a MP inside, and effectively embarrass Leica corporate. You still got my $50 for DAG if you want it. I'll be drinking a 🍺 for you tonight.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Crem

[logan2z]

34 minutes ago, Huss said:

Tested my camera.  Leica did not fix anything.  It scratches the film in the exact same places.  I tested with two rolls - one I developed so I have actual pictures to show, and the other I fed through the camera so you can see the scratches on the undeveloped film.

When the camera was sent in for repair, I included a roll of undeveloped film that had the scratches, so you know, they could see them.

Obviously they did not do anything, and did not test anything.  Wasted 6 weeks and now it needs to go back.

What a bunch of clowns.  I am, not happy...

Sample pic attached, w close up from left side and right side. 

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I'm speechless.  I'd contact Leica USA and demand a replacement camera.  Of course there's no guarantee that the new one would be any better, but it's worth a shot.  At least you'd avoid another 6+ week wait for another repair attempt.

[Huss]

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Staying calm...ohmmmm.... When I checked the film what was noticeable is the scratches were most noticeable at the end of the film, and very few at the beginning.

Which leads me to believe there is something wrong with the rewind release mechanism - it doesn't completely release when activated, so the film is dragged/scraped against whatever as it is rewound until it fully releases.

Of course, Leica did not test anything.  I mean - how could they send it back and say 'fixed'?  When they obviously never tested it to see if it was fixed.

And the test is beyond simple and takes maybe 2 minutes.  You take a fresh roll of film.  You wind it all the way through the camera until you reach the end.  You rewind the film.  You take it out of the camera and look at it.  No scratches? Fixed.  Scratches?  Not fixed!  How difficult is this? 

DO NOT RETURN A BROKEN CAMERA TO YOUR CUSTOMER IF YOU HAVE NOT FIXED IT.  CHECK YOUR FREAKIN WORK.

[Mute-on]

Very disappointing.

[lmans]

1 hour ago, Huss said:

Well how about this then, Leica returned my camera not fixed.  It scratches in the exact same places.  It's almost as if they didn't do anything.  Nah, I'll amend that, they didn't do anything.  Brand new camera, scratches film.  6 week wait, get the camera back un-repaired.  

Pathetic.

Wow… so nothing done? Untouched essentially? 
 

That is insane…. A new camera that had an issue… regardless if it is a broad issue or a solo one…. The company needs to address. That is unheard of…. Sorry man.

[trisberg]

10 minutes ago, Huss said:

Staying calm...ohmmmm.... When I checked the film what was noticeable is the scratches were most noticeable at the end of the film, and very few at the beginning.

Which leads me to believe there is something wrong with the rewind release mechanism - it doesn't completely release when activated, so the film is dragged/scraped against whatever as it is rewound until it fully releases.

Or there is something in the film chamber where the film gets wound into that scratches it once there is enough film in there. Might be hard to pinpoint what scratches the film but should not be hard to reproduce as you have shown. Really disappointing and frustrating for you. I hope they replace the camera.

-Thomas

Edited January 29, 2023 by trisberg

[Crem]

44 minutes ago, Huss said:

Staying calm...ohmmmm.... When I checked the film what was noticeable is the scratches were most noticeable at the end of the film, and very few at the beginning.

Which leads me to believe there is something wrong with the rewind release mechanism - it doesn't completely release when activated, so the film is dragged/scraped against whatever as it is rewound until it fully releases.

Of course, Leica did not test anything.  I mean - how could they send it back and say 'fixed'?  When they obviously never tested it to see if it was fixed.

And the test is beyond simple and takes maybe 2 minutes.  You take a fresh roll of film.  You wind it all the way through the camera until you reach the end.  You rewind the film.  You take it out of the camera and look at it.  No scratches? Fixed.  Scratches?  Not fixed!  How difficult is this? 

DO NOT RETURN A BROKEN CAMERA TO YOUR CUSTOMER IF YOU HAVE NOT FIXED IT.  CHECK YOUR FREAKIN WORK.

It's absolutely clear at this point that nowhere in the QA process do they test with actual film. This is a management failure more than anything. I would have thought/hoped that every tech could grab a roll of film and test out a camera. My guess is these techs are swapping parts and simply hoping it fixes the problem. Leica is a digital first company and has been for a long time. This is probably a 5 minute fix for a film expert like DAG.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Crem

[jonnyc]

2 hours ago, Huss said:

Well how about this then, Leica returned my camera not fixed.  It scratches in the exact same places.  It's almost as if they didn't do anything.  Nah, I'll amend that, they didn't do anything.  Brand new camera, scratches film.  6 week wait, get the camera back un-repaired.  

Pathetic.

Wow that’s really concerning and upsetting. What are you planning to do now?

[Huss]

4 minutes ago, jonnyc said:

Wow that’s really concerning and upsetting. What are you planning to do now?

I've written to Leica NJ - the Manager of Customer Care - who contacted me last week to let me know to expect the shipment.  I figure that is a person that has a title that seems to mean something.  I included the images showing the scratches.  And my disappointment that they would send it back unrepaired.  Explaining how they should test it - which frankly is ridiculous that I have to do that.  And asked for a return shipping label so they can get on it.

In the last couple of weeks I bought two Nikon N80 35mm cameras.  Just for fun.  Both were a mess when I got them (they get sticky) but that's an easy fix and I knew these cameras would work fine.  And they do - perfect exposures, no scratching film etc.  These cameras cost me $20 each.  My Leica M6 retails for $5600.

[Huss]

1 hour ago, trisberg said:

Or there is something in the film chamber where the film gets wound into that scratches it once there is enough film in there. Might be hard to pinpoint what scratches the film but should not be hard to reproduce as you have shown. ..

That's a good point.  Thanks

[28framelines]

2 hours ago, Huss said:

Tested my camera.  Leica did not fix anything.  It scratches the film in the exact same places.  I tested with two rolls - one I developed so I have actual pictures to show, and the other I fed through the camera so you can see the scratches on the undeveloped film.

When the camera was sent in for repair, I included a roll of undeveloped film that had the scratches, so you know, they could see them.

Obviously they did not do anything, and did not test anything.  Wasted 6 weeks and now it needs to go back.

What a bunch of clowns.  I am, not happy...

Sample pic attached, w close up from left side and right side. 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Huss, I am so sorry to hear this! This is so frustrating to see.

[jonnyc]

5 minutes ago, Huss said:

I've written to Leica NJ - the Manager of Customer Care - who contacted me last week to let me know to expect the shipment.  I figure that is a person that has a title that seems to mean something.  I included the images showing the scratches.  And my disappointment that they would send it back unrepaired.  Explaining how they should test it - which frankly is ridiculous that I have to do that.  And asked for a return shipping label so they can get on it.

In the last couple of weeks I bought two Nikon N80 35mm cameras.  Just for fun.  Both were a mess when I got them (they get sticky) but that's an easy fix and I knew these cameras would work fine.  And they do - perfect exposures, no scratching film etc.  These cameras cost me $20 each.  My Leica M6 retails for $5600.

I really hope they’re able to resolve this for you. It’s not like it’s a hard issue to replicate. Not scratching the film should be the bare minimum. Please keep us updated on this!

[28framelines]

FYI, I have sent an email to Leica about the multiple threads related to this issue:

“Hi there,

If you’re not already aware, a couple forums are about to go Nuclear on Leica’s QA/QC team, and I suggest you get someone to actually address this issue publicly in some capacity. There are multiple threads and a lot of regulars to these forums that are running into issues buying brand new Leica Film cameras that are scratching film.

Here are three links:

2022 M6 scratching film: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/355800-my-brand-new-2022-m6-scratches-the-film/page/18/#comments

November 2022 MP scratching film: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/361331-new-mp-scratching-film-build-date-112022/

Leica MP scratching film batch 56XXXX: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/346932-leica-mp-2022-batch-56xxxx-scratching-film/#comment-4563692

These have all been created by members of this community that have recently invested in new Leica gear, and have used Leica gear in the past. They are regulars on the forum. Other people in these discussions are experiencing the same thing. In the first link, Huss, a longtime member, sent his 2022 M6 in for repair to fix this issue; he got it back yesterday, tested it, and it still has the issue. So far, of the 11 people on that forum that have mentioned buying the new M6, 4 of them have their cameras scratching film. That is not a good ratio.

Regardless of how bad this is actually occurring, in a community centred around Leica products (YOUR products!), there’s a lot of anger, frustration, and feeling that Leica products aren’t made like they used to be, and if it’s not addressed soon, I think you’re going to lose some people who have always believed in the brand. This is antithetical to all of the marketing Leica has spent money on saying it’s the best quality; the sad thing is, people are now talking about sending these cameras to DAG instead of your own repair centres to actually get it fixed. Is Leica going to let 3rd parties put them to shame?

Lastly, should we be forwarding this onto Andréa (Global Marketing Director of Leica) for him to find out that way instead? Or will this actually go somewhere sending it via this email?

It’s starting to feel like a working camera brand new out of the box is the exception, not the rule. I’m sure Ernst would be rolling over in his grave.

 

Best regards,

- 28framelines”

[250swb]

17 minutes ago, Mooshoepork said:

 

Thoughts from the brains trust? 
 

🍿

It's very sad that Leica didn't fix the problem, but assuming Leica did look at the pressure plate it kind of makes the point made a long, long time ago that not all scratches have to be made by the pressure plate and it may be worth investigating other things as well. Unfortunately an attempt was made to drown out that advice by people who treat fair discussions like a schoolyard fight, onlookers grouping around and screaming at the top of their voice but to cowardly to actually join in and contribute with an idea. 

[250swb]

3 hours ago, Huss said:

 

Of course, Leica did not test anything.  I mean - how could they send it back and say 'fixed'?  When they obviously never tested it to see if it was fixed.

 

I don't think Leica have engineers/technicians anymore, they are fitters, like the mechanic that would fit a new alternator just because the red light glows. A good engineer when faced with a red light problem thinks 'what else could it be', so they check the connections as well. Sorry to hear the saga goes on. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by 250swb

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[Guest]

3 hours ago, Crem said:

This is a management failure more than anything. 

I agree. This has to be acknowledged by them and sorted out.