Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[Huss]

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1 hour ago, lmans said:

We are still talking about this? And...and...the numbers are meaningless that you are posting for I just bet,  the vast majority of Leica owners by far, are not on this forum. Give up the ship man. Deal with your problem and Leica and don't try to save the world here. 

You can always ignore this thread. Seriously.

the numbers are meaningless to you because you don’t want to hear about them.  So go ahead, tune out.

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[leica5]

I have run 2rolls of FP4 plus so far and developed at home in DDX1:4  in patterson  tank /inversion method,without any scratches on film,frame spacing is even,

yes advancing film is little stiff but doable(unlike old M6 and M6TTL),you feel that film is being pulled.

I bought NEW M6 on November15th serial #568364x from a leica Store.

Sami

[Huss]

3 hours ago, leica5 said:

I have run 2rolls of FP4 plus so far and developed at home in DDX1:4  in patterson  tank /inversion method,without any scratches on film,frame spacing is even,

yes advancing film is little stiff but doable(unlike old M6 and M6TTL),you feel that film is being pulled.

I bought NEW M6 on November15th serial #568364x from a leica Store.

Sami

TY!  And congrats.

14 ok, 7 not.

p.s a little surprised your film advance is a bit stiff.  Mine was perfect, like all my other Ms.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Huss

[hdmesa]

I had a new M-A and Leica-CLAed M4-P this summer that both scratched film — but only if the rewind lever was not engaged with the force of Thor’s Hammer. If the lever was engaged “casually”, too much tension was placed on the the film during rewind, resulting in scratches. Traded them both in. It’s just stupid since in all my years of shooting film from a kid to as late as ~2005 with a Contax N SLR, I never saw a scratched negative that I didn’t scratch myself during developing the negs.

[250swb]

4 hours ago, Mooshoepork said:

 

The fact that the vast majority of Leica owners aren’t in this forum is a good indication something is wrong, 

 

Yes, some Leica cameras scratch film, but it's an internet truism that people with a problem go to an appropriate web site to chew the matter over, those that don't have a problem don't.

So it's a good indication that film scratching isn't massively widespread as only a relatively low number of people are here on the forum complaining about it. If there are twenty people here then let's quadruple the number as a margin to cover people who sent their camera back without complaining on camera forums, then let's invent a lowish figure for the numbers of new M6 cameras Leica are likely to have shipped, say 5000, and you have a problem that covers 1.5%. It is however human nature to hope that you aren't alone and that your problem is also everybody else's problem and inflate expectations, which quite frankly is the pot you are stirring.

[Mikep996]

I find that my opinion on this subject can be summed up as, "I feel strongly both ways!" 😳

As has been stated by several folks, no film camera should ever scratch film.  In the film days I never owned a camera or even heard of one that scratched film, regardless of brand/price.  So it seems totally appropriate to be super upset and raising the roof over the issue.  

OTOH, the only reports of this problem I have seen are here. When it shows up on another site, it references this site, as opposed to a user reporting the problem.  I can't find any reports of it in the numerous tests by photo folks or the various internet influencers ("Influencers" - now there's a concept straight out of the Bizarro world).  I would think that at least one of the numerous tests would have had it occur.  

So the only conclusion I can come to is that all the "bad" cameras were specifically sent only to folks on this forum. 😱   

Wonder how Leica did that? 🤔      

🤣

 

 

 

 

[250swb]

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6 minutes ago, Mooshoepork said:

This is certainly some kind of take but Leica has had QC issues like this for a while now on all of their new film cameras.

capped shutters, loose bayonets, MP scratching film, rewind clicking, rewind switch issues, shutter buttons staying stuck down and not returning. 

If we look at just scratched film the count from this sample doesn’t lie…

By your same logic there will be plenty of people that have had issues and not complained online, so how is that any more indicative of where an issue is. 
 

Again, just because it didn’t happen to you and Leica is your favourite company/personality it doesn’t mean there aren’t issues like this. 

Consider the pot stirred 

I think your pot is overflowing, be careful the shit splashing out doesn't overwhelm your argument.

[Huss]

For the sake of argument lets just say that the seven defective M6 cameras were the only ones defective. Lets say Leica shipped 5000…

It’s also about how Leica handles defective gear shipped new.  That should be immediately replaced, not dumped into the back of the line in their repair queue, with a six plus week wait for possible resolution.  Jewl’s new M6 was returned still defective after “repair”.  It just shows they don’t care.

[250swb]

34 minutes ago, Huss said:

For the sake of argument lets just say that the seven defective M6 cameras were the only ones defective. Lets say Leica shipped 5000…

It’s also about how Leica handles defective gear shipped new.  That should be immediately replaced, not dumped into the back of the line in their repair queue, with a six plus week wait for possible resolution.  Jewl’s new M6 was returned still defective after “repair”.  It just shows they don’t care.

Leica do what any modern manufacturer does, and like it or loath it they appear to just change things out until they last thing they change that works is the repair. It's not good, there is no investigation so nothing to report back to the owner, only 'we tried this or we tried that' on a superficial level. That is entirely a different argument to 'how many' and people like @Mooshoepork now taking individual problems and ramping them up into global problems. Sure enough there are reports of scratching that are real and need looking into, but you've whipped up a level of hysteria in your followers that has spread without checks or balances, or you could call it common sense.

[edstock]

If a new model camera is found to have a problem, and you bought it new under warranty let the manufacturer look and fix, don't Micky mouse with your Leica, unless you are a Leica trained and equipped technician. Most warranties are usually void if unauthorized repairs are made.

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, Huss said:

For the sake of argument lets just say that the seven defective M6 cameras were the only ones defective. Lets say Leica shipped 5000…

It’s also about how Leica handles defective gear shipped new.  That should be immediately replaced, not dumped into the back of the line in their repair queue, with a six plus week wait for possible resolution.  Jewl’s new M6 was returned still defective after “repair”.  It just shows they don’t care.

This happened with the M11 bricks as well until someone or someones stepped in and started replacing them immediately. They need to do the same for the new M6, but it's a much smaller number of units/buyers and may not have hit their radar. I would never accept a repair and would just wait for a new one. But if someone buys from overseas/eBay, etc. and gets stuck with not being able to exchange it, then that's not really Leica's fault.

[Huss]

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

This happened with the M11 bricks as well until someone or someones stepped in and started replacing them immediately. They need to do the same for the new M6, but it's a much smaller number of units/buyers and may not have hit their radar. I would never accept a repair and would just wait for a new one. But if someone buys from overseas/eBay, etc. and gets stuck with not being able to exchange it, then that's not really Leica's fault.

Leica Los Angeles said they would exchange it if they could, but did not have any stock.  Leica HQ should maintain stock in case of such eventualities.

A few years ago I bought a Voigltander Bessa L from Photo Village in NY.  They somehow got a bunch of NOS ones and were blowing them out.  Mine showed up DOA (the film advance mechanism stripped) but Photo Village just swapped it for a new one.  The owner told me he always keeps a certain number of items as spares/not for sale just for such an eventuality.  Because they know it happens.

If a ‘tiny’ operation like Photo Village figured this out, it seems a big operation like Leica should too.

[hdmesa]

5 minutes ago, Huss said:

Leica Los Angeles said they would exchange it if they could, but did not have any stock.  Leica HQ should maintain stock in case of such eventualities.

A few years ago I bought a Voigltander Bessa L from Photo Village in NY.  They somehow got a bunch of NOS ones and were blowing them out.  Mine showed up DOA (the film advance mechanism stripped) but Photo Village just swapped it for a new one.  The owner told me he always keeps a certain number of items as spares/not for sale just for such an eventuality.  Because they know it happens.

If a ‘tiny’ operation like Photo Village figured this out, it seems a big operation like Leica should too.

For every ten or twenty they send out to sell, they should keep one back as immediate replacement stock. Honestly, they should have made these quietly for a year and built up stock then released it in late 2023.

[logan2z]

21 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

I can't find any reports of it in the numerous tests by photo folks or the various internet influencers ("Influencers" - now there's a concept straight out of the Bizarro world).  I would think that at least one of the numerous tests would have had it occur.  

Well, at the risk of sounding cynical...

I wouldn't expect any of the internet/YouTube reviewers to call out a failure like this. 

Firstly, these folks depend on manufacturers like Leica to send them goodies to play with and write/talk about before they are released to the public.  I have serious doubts that they would jeopardize this relationship by calling out DOA or otherwise defective cameras/lenses.  At most I would expect them to quietly communicate issues to the manufacturer.

Secondly, I highly doubt that a camera, lens etc. would be sent to a reviewer without it being thoroughly inspected by the manufacturer for defects - the manufacturer would be crazy not to ensure that only the best examples get sent out for review.  So the products that make into the the reviewers' hands are probably scrutinized more closely than those generally coming off the assembly line. 

Lastly, many of these reviewers might not even notice a defect like scratched film.  Most that I've seen have their film developed/scanned by a lab and it's quite possible that the lab would tweak the scans to eliminate visible evidence of scratches, etc. So the reviewer may be blissfully unaware that their camera is defective.

All of this adds up to the distinct possibility that:

a) Defective cameras do come off the assembly line but do not make it into the hands of reviewers

b) Even if a defective camera does get shipped to a reviewer, it's unlikely you'll ever hear about it.

[Huss]

On 1/22/2023 at 2:14 PM, 250swb said:

Leica do what any modern manufacturer does, and like it or loath it they appear to just change things out until they last thing they change that works is the repair. It's not good, there is no investigation so nothing to report back to the owner, only 'we tried this or we tried that' on a superficial level. That is entirely a different argument to 'how many' and people like @Mooshoepork now taking individual problems and ramping them up into global problems. Sure enough there are reports of scratching that are real and need looking into, but you've whipped up a level of hysteria in your followers that has spread without checks or balances, or you could call it common sense.

It's always hysteria when it is something you don't like.

Checks and balances?  Well, I have asked everyone who has an M6 to let us know of their experience.  Not just those with defective ones.

What is your idea of checks and balances in this case?  How should we be asking the membership at l-camera about their M6 experiences?  

I have followers?  How flattering!

Edited January 23, 2023 by Huss

[Matlock]

7 hours ago, Mooshoepork said:

Lol he’s mad 

Well one of you is and it is not Steve 🙂 

[250swb]

7 hours ago, Huss said:

 

I have followers?  How flattering!

I wouldn't call them minions, or even that you had more than one, look I was exaggerating, more a hanger-on.

Checks and balances come with perspective and healthy scepticism about some of the claims now being made in this thread, not from joining in with a mardy tirade which now includes a growing number of conspiracy theories. In as recent a post as #279 all the reviewers are in-on-it, and we know everybody and their dog knows how to run Leica. The only thing that hasn't been addressed yet is was this really a random event? Why did you receive this particular camera, was it directed to you by a disgruntled whistle blower from the 'Department of Scratches' maybe, or Leica themselves knowing that 'there's no such thing as bad publicity? Well, it's not as impossible as some of the claims 😄

[logan2z]

30 minutes ago, 250swb said:

In as recent a post as #279 all the reviewers are in-on-it, 

Not a conspiracy theory, but based on personal experience.  Let's just say we're not exactly talking about the highest levels of journalistic integrity when it comes to YouTube and other forms of internet reviewers.  I'd be surprised if that surprised you. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[250swb]

4 hours ago, logan2z said:

Not a conspiracy theory, but based on personal experience.  Let's just say we're not exactly talking about the highest levels of journalistic integrity when it comes to YouTube and other forms of internet reviewers.  I'd be surprised if that surprised you. 

I'm surprised you wanted to make it a blanket statement where all are equally liable to lies and fraud, to quote you

"I wouldn't expect any of the internet/YouTube reviewers to call out a failure like this."

which seems just a bit extreme. I trust Jono, and Sean Reid, and a few others, but conspiracy is where this thread has gotten to so I guess it's the new normal.

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

I'm surprised you wanted to make it a blanket statement where all are equally liable to lies and fraud, to quote you

"I wouldn't expect any of the internet/YouTube reviewers to call out a failure like this."

which seems just a bit extreme. I trust Jono, and Sean Reid, and a few others, but conspiracy is where this thread has gotten to so I guess it's the new normal.

Admittedly my expectations are low, and perhaps I should have said "many" rather than "any".  But I stand by the opinion that the majority of YouTube/internet reviewers are not likely to call out failures with the gear they review.  If you have some examples of reviews that have called out faults/failures then feel free to share them, I'd be happy to be proven wrong.  

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by logan2z