Brand new MP/M-A/M6 film scratches [Merged]

[Huss]

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8 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

In the end, drawing conclusions based on one person's experience is worthless. It is helpful that someone here is keeping track of faults, but that is still pretty imperfect for drawing meaningful conclusions - for all the reasons of sampling bias, lack of past data for comparison, sample size etc etc that have been discussed before.

As a student of statistics for geologists a couple of centuries back, I was taught the formula to use so that if I was counting black swans and white swans, I could calculate how many swans I needed to count to be 90% certain that black swans made up less than (e.g.) 5% of the population of swans. The days when I could do such calculations are long gone, but I doubt that the limited numbers of good and bad reports we have received so far are anything like enough to achieve 90% certainty of anything.

Of course anyone is at liberty to conclude whatever they like and tell everyone their conclusions. That doesn't take them out of the realm of guesswork, informed or otherwise.

I have not yet received a faulty new camera or lens from Leica, apart from the M240 that used to freeze in my first year of ownership, so my personal biases about Leica are nothing to do with QC or design failures. I just wish they could get their service times down to a couple of weeks at most, rather than the six months I recently experienced.

Short version -

1.  we should dismiss the good faith effort to track faulty cameras as I disapprove of the methodology even though I have nothing better to offer.

2.  I have not received a faulty new camera or lens, apart from my M240.  But that doesn't count as it goes against my absolute statement of having not received a faulty new camera.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Huss

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[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, Huss said:

Short version -

1.  we should dismiss the good faith effort to track faulty cameras as I disapprove of the methodology even though I have nothing better to offer.

2.  I have not received a faulty new camera or lens, apart from my M240.  But that doesn't count as it goes against my absolute statement of having not received a faulty new camera.

1. I approve of your efforts - I wish more people would do this. But it will take time to reach a conclusion.

2. I don't use my experience to draw conclusions about the whole picture. My point is: we don't have enough data to draw conclusions one way or another. But I know I'm fighting a losing battle here - when did a lack of data stop anyone on an internet forum from drawing conclusions?

(You are correct - I was inconsistent about my M240 - it was a camera I received that had a fault. I suspect, though, it was a design fault that might have been difficult to pick up with normal QC checks - so I classify it as a design fault, not a QC one. It's still a fault, though I'm a bit more forgiving about such things than the failures that should have been obvious when they left the factory).

[Ouroboros]

11 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

In the end, drawing conclusions based on one person's experience is worthless. 

It's clear to me Leica have problems with QC and I'm not alone.  I uploaded images on another thread a year ago illustrating the problems my son had when he bought a new M-A. 

The first M-A had a light leak on the first film which came from a hole that had been punched through the film cassette chamber and leaked light from the viewfinder.  It was immediately replaced with second M-A which had an issue on first use with a shutter curtain showing signs of falling apart.  Both cameras were supplied new in sealed boxes and came with these issues,  both issues should have been obvious with even a rudimentary QC check before they left Wetzlar.  These were not design flaws, they were caused purely by poor workmanship and lack of quality control.   

The third M-A he received so far seems ok but two out of three new M-A's with clearly obvious faults that were not picked up by a QC check is inexcusable. 

Part of the experience of buying a new Leica camera has always been that you are buying into an assurance of the best optical and mechanical quality.   The paperwork that comes with Leica cameras and lenses is supposed to reinforce that assurance. 

It is not my son's or other people's experiences that are worthless, the paperwork in the box holds that honour. 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Ouroboros

[Erato]

It's all about QC at all. 

One should avoid known issues, keep it on a percentages which are almost perfect(extremely low buggy, defective, far beyond acceptable)prior max production while it has a jewel alike price tags.

Are there any of you accept a diamond comes with a glitch while the certification elaborates a certain class of 4C/GIA?

The requirements and fulfillments balance ratio gap is obviously incline, isn't it?

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited January 18, 2023 by Erato
ref. image added

[oldwino]

There are two issues:

1. Leica does seem to have QC issues. Of course there will be occasional misfires, and a faulty camera will get by any QC. The fact that so many have been reported here on LUF, which is probably represents a small percentage of the total number of cameras sold, could lead one to believe that the problem isn't within normal failure rates. 

2. The proper way for Leica to deal with this is not only to find and fix the problem, it is one of customer service and company image. Instead of saying "send your brand new camera back to us and we will put it in the repair queue", they should be saying "we are so very sorry you received a product that is not up to our quality standards. Please return the camera to us, and we will immediately ship you a new replacement. And a roll of film for your troubles".  Which one would leave you feeling like the company care about your experience?

[Huss]

3 hours ago, oldwino said:

There are two issues:

1. Leica does seem to have QC issues. Of course there will be occasional misfires, and a faulty camera will get by any QC. The fact that so many have been reported here on LUF, which is probably represents a small percentage of the total number of cameras sold, could lead one to believe that the problem isn't within normal failure rates. 

2. The proper way for Leica to deal with this is not only to find and fix the problem, it is one of customer service and company image. Instead of saying "send your brand new camera back to us and we will put it in the repair queue", they should be saying "we are so very sorry you received a product that is not up to our quality standards. Please return the camera to us, and we will immediately ship you a new replacement. And a roll of film for your troubles".  Which one would leave you feeling like the company care about your experience?

Exactly.  The fact that Leica deals with brand new defective product with a shrug and dumping it into the back of the repair queue really leaves a poor taste in one’s mouth.

But there literally is no competition, which is why they are able to get away with this.  

[Ouroboros]

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10 minutes ago, Mooshoepork said:

These don’t count though because we can’t determine that Leica has bad QC based on real customer experiences.

 

Not enough data…or something?

So you need it carved into your forehead?  It counts when you've spent over £4k on a Leica M-A with a hole where a hole shouldn't be or the shutter is falling apart from new.

Do me a favour! 

[Huss]

5 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

So you need it carved into your forehead?  It counts when you've spent over £4k on a Leica M-A with a hole where a hole shouldn't be or the shutter is falling apart from new.

Do me a favour! 

Pretty sure Mooshoe was being sarcastic if you read his prior comments!

Edited January 18, 2023 by Huss

[Fotoklaus]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Ouroboros:

So you need it carved into your forehead?  It counts when you've spent over £4k on a Leica M-A with a hole where a hole shouldn't be or the shutter is falling apart from new.

Do me a favour! 

Do you mean the hole for the non existing battery which is covered with a piece of tin?

This hole does not exist officially :-)

[Ouroboros]

48 minutes ago, Fotoklaus said:

Do you mean the hole for the non existing battery which is covered with a piece of tin?

This hole does not exist officially 🙂

No, I mean the unofficial hole in the film cassette chamber.

 

[Ouroboros]

2 hours ago, Huss said:

Pretty sure Mooshoe was being sarcastic if you read his prior comments!

Apologies if I misunderstood, I had't read previous posts!

[oldwino]

On 1/16/2023 at 10:23 AM, Mikep996 said:

Maybe Leica should just go back to what they know best - digital cameras!  🤣

 

 

 

 

This is funny. And it’s also true at this point.

[Huss]

17 hours ago, oldwino said:

This is funny. And it’s also true at this point.

My M10r is so sweet.  But I just prefer film!

[madNbad]

On 1/16/2023 at 10:23 AM, Mikep996 said:

Maybe Leica should just go back to what they know best - digital cameras!  🤣

 

 

 

 

It’s safe to say “Despite the sensor problems, the M9 never scratched any film!”

Leica has had plenty of miscues and production problems over the years but as has been pointed out, when there is only one manufacturer still making an interchangeable lens rangefinder camera, we can be upset or disappointed but we’ll still keep watching for what’s coming next.

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

My brand new 2022 M6 scratches the film

@Huss  Look at the bright side:  At least it doesn't freeze up. 😁

[mshchem]

My new MP is fin, all my old M bodies are fine. My question is this scratching, attributed to the pressure plate that has exposed screws? None of my older M bodies have exposed screw heads? 

Could be the screws are defective? 

Leica should have better final inspection 

[Fotoklaus]

vor einer Stunde schrieb mshchem:

My new MP is fin, all my old M bodies are fine. My question is this scratching, attributed to the pressure plate that has exposed screws? None of my older M bodies have exposed screw heads? 

Could be the screws are defective? 

Leica should have better final inspection 

That was also yet discussed. The screws are outside the film area where the picture should be. Even if they produce scrtaches, the had to be on the perforation or even

completely outside.

[dickgillberg]

My new M6 is fine in every aspect for the record. It was manufactured 22.11.15. Lovely camera not as smooth as my MP from 2004 but perhaps it will with time. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Huss]

3 hours ago, dickgillberg said:

My new M6 is fine in every aspect for the record. It was manufactured 22.11.15. Lovely camera not as smooth as my MP from 2004 but perhaps it will with time. 

TY

13 ok, 7 not.

[lmans]

We are still talking about this? And...and...the numbers are meaningless that you are posting for I just bet,  the vast majority of Leica owners by far, are not on this forum. Give up the ship man. Deal with your problem and Leica and don't try to save the world here.