Can the older lenses keep up with the 60mp on the M11

[jimtong]

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Hi,

Not sure if this is ask before. For those who own the M11, may I ask can the 60mp sensor able to resolve the images from older lens?

 

Thanks in advance.

[hmzimelka]

38 minutes ago, jimtong said:

Hi,

Not sure if this is ask before. For those who own the M11, may I ask can the 60mp sensor able to resolve the images from older lens?

 

Thanks in advance.

Yes. 

The resolution of an image is the result of a system of the camera and lens resolutions working together. Increasing the resolution of a camera with the same lens will increase the resolution of the system. System MTF = Lens MTF x Camera MTF . Increasing either lens or camera resolution increases system resolution. 

A detail that is often overlooked, is that the difference in resolution between 24MP and 60MP is less than what most people think. It's only around a 1.58x increase in resolution. 

Yes, all of my 1950's and 1960's Leica lenses can "handle" the 60MP imager of the M11.

Edited December 15, 2022 by hmzimelka

[01af]

vor 45 Minuten schrieb jimtong:

Not sure if this is ask before.

This question gets asked for decades now, each and every time a new digital camera gets released with a higher pixel count than the previous model. The first time I saw this question asked was when a compact point-and-shoot camera with 4 MP got released which got the the same lens built in as the preceding model which had 3 MP.

.

vor 45 Minuten schrieb jimtong:

For those who own the M11, may I ask can the 60-MP sensor able to resolve the images from older lens?

See this post (and following), for example.

[Sonnelacht]

Why not by god!!?

Will the lens get ashamed by the ultra modern sensor? Why otherwise should it loose some of its quality? Next question: Do You define the quality of a picture by terms of sharpness or micro contrast? Then don't look at older photographic masterpieces!

Btw: Leica will enjoy You buying always the "last" sensor together with the "last" lens. Nevertheless it will obviously not grade up the quality of your pictures, I will bet.

[Jeff S]

Again… and again….

Jeff

[01af]

hiccup ...

Edited December 15, 2022 by 01af

[Herr Barnack]

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4 hours ago, Sonnelacht said:

Why not by god!!?

Will the lens get ashamed by the ultra modern sensor? Why otherwise should it loose some of its quality? Next question: Do You define the quality of a picture by terms of sharpness or micro contrast? Then don't look at older photographic masterpieces!

Btw: Leica will enjoy You buying always the "last" sensor together with the "last" lens. Nevertheless it will obviously not grade up the quality of your pictures, I will bet.

Sometimes my lenses get ashamed by the photos I make when using them.  They often long to be adopted by Jacob Aue Sobol or Peter Turnley.

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Tailwagger]

Personally, I think the answer depends on the lens and what you're trying to do with it.  Most of my earlier optics, the Mandlers (28, 75, 90) in particular, are terrific on the M11, noticeably better than with the 10-R IMO. That said...

Was just out the other day with my '69 35mm 'lux as conditions here were just right to attempt a redo of a shot I made several years ago with the M10.  This particular image was conceived as moody one, so that particular optic being lower contrast was really what I wanted to use over any of the sharper scalpels I have in my box. What I've observed, at least with this particular optic is that its fully up to the task save for the extreme corners where it can go a little mushy. Now the interesting thing is that if I go back to pixel peep the previous work, I now notice the same thing which previous I had simply ignored, just slightly muted.  

IMO, the lower res of the M10 made the difference in acuity level between the center frame vs. the corners less noticeable than with the M11. The corner smearing is now much more clearly in evidence as it's 'sharper'... more easily seen as a lens flaw rather than having a certain bokeh-ish charm.  The same, btw, was true with the 10-R, just a little less so.  So perhaps you might come away slightly less satisfied when using this optic for some sorts of work, but for others that don't require sharpness across the entire frame, it actually comes off quite well and is surprisingly good in the center circle.

[scott kirkpatrick]

3 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Personally, I think the answer depends on the lens and what you're trying to do with it.  Most of my earlier optics, the Mandlers (28, 75, 90) in particular, are terrific on the M11, noticeably better than with the 10-R IMO. That said...

Was just out the other day with my '69 35mm 'lux as conditions here were just right to attempt a redo of a shot I made several years ago with the M10.  This particular image was conceived as moody one, so that particular optic being lower contrast was really what I wanted to use over any of the sharper scalpels I have in my box. What I've observed, at least with this particular optic is that its fully up to the task save for the extreme corners where it can go a little mushy. Now the interesting thing is that if I go back to pixel peep the previous work, I now notice the same thing which previous I had simply ignored, just slightly muted.  

IMO, the lower res of the M10 made the difference in acuity level between the center frame vs. the corners less noticeable than with the M11. The corner smearing is now much more clearly in evidence as it's 'sharper'... more easily seen as a lens flaw rather than having a certain bokeh-ish charm.  The same, btw, was true with the 10-R, just a little less so.  So perhaps you might come away slightly less satisfied when using this optic for some sorts of work, but for others that don't require sharpness across the entire frame, it actually comes off quite well and is surprisingly good in the center circle.

Did you only notice the slight softness in your older M10 pix once you had looked at them at 60 MPx?  I know it is hard to "unsee" that kind of thing, but how do you feel about the results when you show both pictures at the same size, say printed at 11x14?

[Tailwagger]

1 minute ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Did you only notice the slight softness in your older M10 pix once you had looked at them at 60 MPx?  I know it is hard to "unsee" that kind of thing, but how do you feel about the results when you show both pictures at the same size, say printed at 11x14?

Yes and no. The first time I noticed these sorts of flaws was actually in doing some real world testing with the 10-R when it first arrived.  Initially I thought there was some problem with the new camera, but I was 'schooled' by Aden on the subject and indeed, when I went back and reviewed earlier shots from the M10 with this lens, the artifacts were present as well, just less noticeable. 

I haven't yet felt the need to print any of these shots, but I suspect, certainly at 11x14, I wouldn't be too bothered, again depending on the sort of shot involved.   Here's a random result from the M11 (set lens correction, press auto in LR).  First the scene... (click on it, of course)...

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[Tailwagger]

Heres roughly the center, quite good AFAIC...

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Now the lower left hand corner where the smearing is quite evident in the leftmost gravestone. Note that the one on the right is decent, so the problems really are confined to the corners. 

Now for a scene such as this one, after processing, I doubt I'd be bothered much by this, certainly at the sizes you mention, but I can certainly see how some could be. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Tailwagger

[TheGodParticle/Hari]

Depends on what you’re shooting. For my subject matter, the camera delivers images that are satisfying to me.

All images shot at full resolution

1. Summilux 75/1.4

2. Summarex 85/1.5

3. Summar 50/2 

4. Summitar 50/2 

5. Summarit 50/1.5 

6. Noctilux 50/1.2 original version 

 

 

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[01af]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb Tailwagger:

Personally, I think the answer depends on the lens and what you're trying to do with it.

No, it doesn't.

A good lens will always be good, on any sensor. A weak lens will always be weak, on any sensor.

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vor 13 Stunden schrieb Tailwagger:

... the lower resolution of the M10 made the difference in acuity level between the center frame vs. the corners less noticeable than with the M11. The corner smearing is now much more clearly in evidence ...

That's a misconception. In fact, the smearing of details in the frame's corners is exactly the same with both cameras.

Unfortunately, most people tend to forget that pixel-peeping a 60-MP image at 100 % view means a significantly higher magnification than pixel-peeping a 24-MP image at 100 % view. And it's the higher magnification what makes any flaws of the lens more evident to the beholder, not the higher pixel count.

So, when inspecting the 24-MP image at 100 % view on your monitor then you'd have to view the 60-MP image at 63 % in order to compare both images at the same magnification (well, 60, 65, or 66 % are close enough). When inspecting the 60-MP image at 100 % view then you'd have to view the 24-MP image at 159 %. Or, in order to deny both images the unfair advantage of the smooth 100 % view, set the sizes to 79 % for the 60-MP image and 126 % for the 24-MP image, to compare them at the same magnification.

Alternatively, print both images to the same size ... big size, perferably.

If you do that then the lens' flaws will become evident to the very same degree, no matter what the sensor's resolution was.

[jaapv]

21 hours ago, jimtong said:

Hi,

Not sure if this is ask before. For those who own the M11, may I ask can the 60mp sensor able to resolve the images from older lens?

 

Thanks in advance.

 Lenses do not "keep up" with sensors. It is an additive situation, not a subtractive one. If your lenses satisfy you on 10 MP they will continue to do so on 60 MP. If your lenses are crap, the 60 MP will show even better that they are.

From the Lens Rental's blog:

 

 

 

 

 

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[jimtong]

Thanks everyone for your input.

[Jeff S]

On 12/16/2022 at 5:21 AM, jaapv said:

 Lenses do not "keep up" with sensors. It is an additive situation, not a subtractive one. If your lenses satisfy you on 10 MP they will continue to do so on 60 MP. If your lenses are crap, the 60 MP will show even better that they are.

From the Lens Rental's blog:

 

 

 

 

 

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Post #6.

Jeff

[hjddd]

I do not know why, my 11873 35 1.4 Aspherical works way better on M10R than on the M11. Someone has the same experience?

[geotrupede]

the question you need to ask is: is the storage going to be ok with 60MP? because unless you are really looking t reproduction of documents and scientific imaging the key issue is the size of files rather than resolution.

in any case, you can always dial in 18MP or 36 and things are totally fine

G>

 

[M11 for me]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb hjddd:

I do not know why, my 11873 35 1.4 Aspherical works way better on M10R than on the M11. Someone has the same experience?

You should specify what works better. Do you have a focussing problem?

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Hallo,

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[sdk]

As others have said, a higher resolution sensor will almost always record the image projected by a lens more faithfully. It will increase the resolution captured, and will also faithfully capture lens aberrations. But, there is also the related issue that older rangefinder lenses are often optimized for film, which is a thinner capture system than a digital sensor with microlenses such as used in the M11. Film optimized wideangle lenses tend to interact with the digital sensor to produce color errors and blurring in the corner of images, due to extreme ray angles projected to the corners from the rear of the lens, while newer wideangle lenses tend to be more retrofocal in lens design to reduce this ray angle error. For example the Zeiss 28mm/2.8 Biogon ZM, fantastic on film, has somewhat blurry corners on the M11, while the new version of the Leica 28mm/2.8 Elmarit ASPH is very good to the corners.