Buying into the Digital M System

[MikeMyers]

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This looks like the most appropriate place in this forum to ask an unusual question.  I've already bought into the "M-system" starting in the 1970's.  My question is how I can take advantage of the improvements in digital photography, while using a Leica M.

 

I've got my film Leica cameras, an M8.2, and a M10.  I haven't yet joined the people updating from their M10 - it seems to me, that my M10 already does everything I need in a Leica RF camera.

I have also been reading how the new models with so much more.  memory (60 meg files!) now work best with the newest Leica lenses that are designed for that capability, and older M-mount lenses can't take advantage of the potential quality.

Seems to me that were I to get a new M, especially if I got some of the better lenses, my ability to focus might not be good enough to get the most out of the camera, and I would likely start using the rear screen and a Visoflex a lot more.  Autofocus is certainly a weak point for me, especially so with long lenses.

So, my question - rather than using live-view and a Visoflex, does Leica make a camera that would accept all my M lenses, but provide a built-in "mirrorless" technology, which would help my focusing accuracy?  Is the "SL2" what I would be looking for?  I assume it would also accept auto-focus lenses.

Let's say my M10 is worth between $3,000 and $5,000.  A new M11 is approaching $9,000.  An SL2 might cost me $5,000 used from KEH.  My personal issues with the SL2 is that I already own a Nikon D780, which is likely a better camera for me.

All of which seems to indicate I would be best off to forget about updating, and just treat the M10 the way I treated my film Leica cameras - a "forever" camera.  But it, and use it.

I've already "bought into" the "M-System", since the 1970's.  I wanted the M8 because it was digital.  I wanted the M10 because it seemed to me like the ultimate M.  I'm curious about the SL2, but most of me thinks I should just stick with my M10 and stop thinking about new models.  

 

Or, jump ahead five years or so, when cameras might be capturing 1,000 megabyte images.  My personal one wish for Leica M is that the viewfinder could work like the viewfinder on a Fuji X100F, and switch back and forth from "optical" to "video" at the flip of a switch.  That is the single biggest improvement that I would find most useful.

(Or, for Fuji to make a full-frame X100 type camera that accepted M lenses.)

 

......or, to summarize, having already bought into the digital M system, how can I simultaneously take advantage of the improvements in digital photography.

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[Kwesi]

27 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

All of which seems to indicate I would be best off to forget about updating, and just treat the M10 the way I treated my film Leica cameras - a "forever" camera.  But it, and use it.

I think you are onto something here! The M10 platform is solid.

Regarding your concerns about focusing new lenses on the M11 v M10, there really is no practical difference. What Ive found with the M11 is that my lenses, both current and vintage seem to show more of their nuances, (character?) with the M11 than on previous digital M's. That was just a nice observation and by itself not a reason to upgrade.

[lct]

29 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

What Ive found with the M11 is that my lenses, both current and vintage seem to show more of their nuances, (character?) with the M11 than on previous digital M's. That was just a nice observation and by itself not a reason to upgrade.

A reason to upgrade could be for owners of vintage lenses suffering from red edge issues on previous digital M's, like Heliar 15/4.5, Biogon 21/4.5 or Super-Angulon 21/3.4. About Biogon 21/4.5, see https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/349946-c-biogon-2145-on-m11/.

 

[MikeMyers]

42 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Regarding your concerns about focusing new lenses on the M11 v M10, there really is no practical difference.

Suggestion - read this with an open mind, and then think about it for a while.

https://www.dpreview.com/opinion/2213667251/leica-s-m11-risks-rendering-the-rangefinder-obsolete

My own conclusion was if I was to spend between $4,000 and $10,000 for a Leica lens, and knowing what these new lenses are capable of, is the rangefinder on the M camera adequate, or would I likely want  the additional precision of Leica's other cameras?  I suspect I would likely be shooting with the rear screen and/or Visoflex, probably with the focusing aids that Leica provides.  

To be honest though, none of this really applies to me, as given the choice between the Leica lenses, and the much more affordable Voigtlander lenses, it's no longer a choice.  If I was still working, and not retired, I might feel differently, and would quite likely already have "upgraded" my M10, but I don't see much point in "upgrading", and I don't see where the change would even be an "upgrade".  

Edited December 6, 2022 by MikeMyers

[lct]

Such upgrade could be a quatum leap is one quits considering lenses as sort of tools aiming at a boring perfection. Instead, one might look at them like a musical instrument for example or a colored pallet aiming at an infinitely more interesting thing called Beauty 😇.

[Kwesi]

1 hour ago, MikeMyers said:

Suggestion - read this with an open mind, and then think about it for a while.

https://www.dpreview.com/opinion/2213667251/leica-s-m11-risks-rendering-the-rangefinder-obsolete

My own conclusion was if I was to spend between $4,000 and $10,000 for a Leica lens, and knowing what these new lenses are capable of, is the rangefinder on the M camera adequate, or would I likely want  the additional precision of Leica's other cameras?  I suspect I would likely be shooting with the rear screen and/or Visoflex, probably with the focusing aids that Leica provides.  

To be honest though, none of this really applies to me, as given the choice between the Leica lenses, and the much more affordable Voigtlander lenses, it's no longer a choice.  If I was still working, and not retired, I might feel differently, and would quite likely already have "upgraded" my M10, but I don't see much point in "upgrading", and I don't see where the change would even be an "upgrade".  

The article doesn't deem the rangefinder incapable of achieving critical focus. It merely states the potential limitations of the system given that the focus patch is fixed in the center of the viewfinder.

Anywhoo, lets not hijack the OP's thread.

[Adam Bonn]

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58 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Anywhoo, lets not hijack the OP's thread.

This.

[JHarvey]

As a new Leica M10 owner I have been very happy with my choice, I was lucky enough to get a very lightly used one that still has all the boxes, manuals, and accessories (still in their little bags and unused it appears) plus a couple of non Leica lenses. I looked at a well used m240 and did not like the feel of it in my hands, it just felt fat and clunky. The M10 has been a great decision for me.

I am venturing into street photography and not just daytime shooting but night time, rainy time, you name it time and have been very happy with the IQ from the M10. 

IMHO go for the M10 if you can, you won't be disappointed.

John

[Tailwagger]

Another M10 vote. There's a reason, several really, why the M10 is retaining more value than its peers.  Had I kept mine from 2017, it would retail for 75% of what I paid new, which in retrospect was true bargain. The 240, which I bought used, felt ancient the day I purchased it; a characteristic I initially enjoyed, but grew tired of over time.   The only advantage I found using the 240 was battery life and, unlike for most apparently, the 'C' switch which I'd occasionally use when coming across unexpected fluid street situations.  Everything else, from color, shadows, speed, LV, AWB, size, etc. was a slam dunk in favor of the 10. As much as I love my current 11, I continue to think I should lose my backup 10-R in favor of a 10-P/D. AFAIC, not having ever owned a M9, it is the M with the most soul and to date, AFAIC, the classic expression what a digital M should be. 

[Huss]

I have a whole bunch of film Ms, have the xpro3, had the M240, now have the M10-r

Get an M10 over the M240 just because it is as close to a film camera, let alone a film M, as you can get.  The addition of the ISO dial on the M10 vs it being in the menu w the M240 makes such a significant difference in usability.  Worth it for just that!

I’m actually also thinking of selling off my Fuji system because I never use it.  I’m always using my film Ms, and would have the digital M if I need the seamless transition for those occasions.

[Bikie John]

If you might be looking at an M10, also consider an M10-P. The differences between the base M10 and the -P are pretty small on paper, but I think they are definitely nice to have if they are things you care about. The shutter is lovely and quiet. The camera has a level gauge which may be unimportant to you in itself, but it does mean that the camera supports the perspective correction facility - some people find this very useful, others don't rate it at all, it just depends on your usage. I think there are a few other small differences. I am not sure what the price differential from the base M10 is at the moment.

John

[Adam Bonn]

9 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

The only advantage I found using the 240 was battery life and, unlike for most apparently, the 'C' switch which I'd occasionally use when coming across unexpected fluid street situations

I miss the C switch too! And on a personal level I thought it very ‘un-Leica-like’ to take a physical control away and bury it in the menu… can you imagine the angst if they did that with the frame line selector lever 😅

[Adam Bonn]

ops had two tabs open and this wasn't the one to place the photo!

Edited December 7, 2022 by Adam Bonn

[Tailwagger]

4 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

I miss the C switch too! And on a personal level I thought it very ‘un-Leica-like’ to take a physical control away and bury it in the menu… can you imagine the angst if they did that with the frame line selector lever 😅

Amen. 

Funny really as I cant ever recall a time when I found the frame selector useful as my imagination seems more than sufficient when contemplating a lens change.  I wonder how many folks actually use it with any frequency?  Personally I'd be happy to lose the frame preview functionality entirely retaining the lever to appease the desire for a traditional look but convert it an actual three position switch for selecting single shot/continuous low/continuous high. Far more useful AFAIC.

[Adam Bonn]

24 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

an actual three position switch for selecting single shot/continuous low/continuous high. Far more useful AFAIC.

That's a superb idea, maybe continuous low/hi could be a menu choice and the 3rd position could be the timer release. But that might be just me.. 

[lct]

25 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

I wonder how many folks actually use it with any frequency?

Count me in since the seventies. I don't use it very often but often enough to miss it when it lacks. Would be great to see the same frames in the EVF too. Curious that we can see perspective and zoom lines but not frame lines there, unless i'm missing something...

[Tailwagger]

26 minutes ago, lct said:

Count me in since the seventies. I don't use it very often but often enough to miss it when it lacks. Would be great to see the same frames in the EVF too. Curious that we can see perspective and zoom lines but not frame lines there, unless i'm missing something...

Dont think you're missing anything.  My assumption is that the current mechanism has no electrical position sensing, so theres no way at this point to simulate the frame lines in the EVF.  I suppose if we're blue skying it might be possible for the M12 to get rid of the current mechanism and instead project the frame lines on the OVF electronically. Then the lever could be converted to a programmable switch and be configured by the firmware to do frame lines, multishot, metering mode switching or whatever else that currently forces you into the menus to choose from 2 or 3 options.

[JuveFC]

I'm very close to picking up an M10-P. I was even contemplating the M10-R but I wasn't sure the extra $2300-2500 would be worth it. 

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[Herr Barnack]

On 12/5/2022 at 2:05 PM, hteasley said:

Low light performance has gotten better and better. The M11 is amazing. The M10 was pretty good, and a lot better than the M240, in my experience. M240 is also too fat: I like the film M proportions.

IMHO, the M240 and M-P 240's Achilles' heel is ISO.  A maximum of ISO 6400 leaves me painted into a corner exposure wise in low light situations. 

The color rendition and file size are fine for me - I have printed to 24x36 inches from these 24mp files and have gotten exhibit quality prints.  At first, the extra girth of the M-P 240 didn't bother me, but it got old.  I much prefer the slimmer proportions of my M10 Monochrom. 

If the M11 is a no-go in terms of price, I would look for a clean used M10-P.  The M-P 240 is still a good camera though as long as you can live with the ISO constraints.

Quote

I'm very close to picking up an M10-P. I was even contemplating the M10-R but I wasn't sure the extra $2300-2500 would be worth it. 

@JuveFC If the extra cost of the M10-R is doable, I would get the M10-R.  It is pretty close to the M11 in terms of specs and performance, as I understand it.  A friend of mine had an M11 and didn't care for the shutter.  He ended up trading it for a black paint M10-R and is glad he did.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[JuveFC]

8 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

IMHO, the M240 and M-P 240's Achilles' heel is ISO.  A maximum of ISO 6400 leaves me painted into a corner exposure wise in low light situations. 

The color rendition and file size are fine for me - I have printed to 24x36 inches from these 24mp files and have gotten exhibit quality prints.  At first, the extra girth of the M-P 240 didn't bother me, but it got old.  I much prefer the slimmer proportions of my M10 Monochrom. 

If the M11 is a no-go in terms of price, I would look for a clean used M10-P.  The M-P 240 is still a good camera though as long as you can live with the ISO constraints.

@JuveFC If the extra cost of the M10-R is doable, I would get the M10-R.  It is pretty close to the M11 in terms of specs and performance, as I understand it.  A friend of mine had an M11 and didn't care for the shutter.  He ended up trading it for a black paint M10-R and is glad he did.

Difference is $2300 USD and i also got an extra battery as well as leica half case and thumbgrip. That difference in price would get me a great used lens.