Q2: I changed my mind

[DenverSteve]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

On 11/26/2022 at 2:37 PM, northtosouth said:

One alternative that doesn't get much discussion is the Sony A7c. Most often the Q2 is compared to the Fuji x100 series but I think the A7c is a more interesting comparison, especially when you consider how well it works with adapted m-mount glass. I still somewhat regret trading mine in for an A7 IV, the advantages of the newer model are slight.

The Q2 is a superior handling camera without even mentioning the quality of the output (which I also prefer). The Q2 is probably more weatherproof, but I've used the A7c is some pretty harsh conditions without problems, I think Sony's AF is vastly better for a wide variety of applications, but Leica Q2 isn't bad and if anything I think its better than the last two Fuji's I owned. I won't go back to crop sensors (although I used them for years) but I might be tempted by an updated A7c. I'll still keep the Q2 for a long time, its a classic design, a joy to use and makes delicious images.

The comparison to the A7c is actually discussed quite a bit, and I agree with you it's great. Although, I find the A7c easily as balanced and easy handling (and lighter) as the Q2.  However, you have to get beyond two issues first. First, the Leica "mystique" has to be overcome because, most of us Leica / Sony shooters buy Leica because we believe there to be a benefit to it (varies with individuals), regardless of price.  Secondly, one has to remain mindful that the Q2 has double the sensor resolution of the A7c.  To me, the A7c is the closest apples-to-apples comparison to the Q2 when you put on a fixed prime lens to keep the A7c size/weight comparable to the Q2.  The A7c produces some of the finest images possible at 24MP. These images can be blown up to 40"x 60", with extreme sharpness and beauty, effortlessly.  The usability advantage goes to the Sony because of lens interchangeability. 

However, without getting out a slide-rule, at double the sensor resolution, you can effectively take a Q2 and shoot any image, crop it in half (effective focal-length of 56mm) and still maintain a 24MP file matching the Sony image quality - without even moving your feet.  This essentially negates any Sony advantage until you get beyond an effective focal length of +/- 60mm.  Add to that, the fact that a very small percent of shooters ever print anything anymore, let alone 20x30, 30x40 or 40x60, the argument becomes moot.  One should use the fixed lens "opportunity" to improve their creativity, get off the pavement and get closer to their subjects and shoot more, complain less.  The Q cameras will always be a folly to most and a clarion-call to the more adventurous among us. Adventurous, and willingness to pay over $5000 for a point-and-shoot - albeit the best point-and-shoot on the planet. I guess the prudent among us would buy the A7c and 3 lenses AND take a trip to Tahiti to use the camera instead of purchasing one high-dollar fixed-lens camera and walking around the keyboard a few more times looking for something to complain about.  I am moving closer and closer to only shooting with one-lens-per-body and keeping my size/weight kit as small as possible.  That said, I maintain my longer Sony glass and zooms because there are times when I want 300mm of lens in front of my tiny camera to get "the shot", especially when shooting wild animals like Gorillas, Bison and Elk/Moose which I do pretty regularly.  There are just times when the Q2 won't do so the easiest thing is to have a couple more great bodies to throw a long lens on when the mood hits.  

[trickness]

On 11/29/2022 at 2:45 PM, jaapv said:

Well, it is when you move closer (thus not crop, but zoom with your feet). Perspective is a function of distance, not of the lens or sensor format (AKA crop)

 

 

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly but certainly, a 21 close up will look very different from a 35 or a 75 close up, so perspective is not exclusively a function of distance and can very much depend on the lens.

Edited December 6, 2022 by trickness

[jaapv]

20 minutes ago, trickness said:

so perspective is not exclusively a function of distance and can very much depend on the lens.

I'm afraid that you are 100% wrong. Perspective is solely a function of distance.  If you move closer or further the perspective will change, no matter what lens you use. If you remain stationary, changing the focal length will "crop" or "expand" the image, but the scene cannot change - obviously. You are tricked by the fact that your 21 close-up will be taken from a closer distance than your 35 or 75 closeup.

[Siriusone59]

It isn't actually perspective but a lot of people mistakenly refer to it as such.  Since I'm so good at explaining things.😆  I better just post a link to someone better suited.

  https://admiringlight.com/blog/perspective-correcting-myth/

[tom0511]

when my Q2 was stolen I decided to not get another one and rather use my M more often.

The Q2 is great and fast and faster than the M, but I felt it was almost too easy to shoot with it. SO now I use my M more often again. Not as fast, no AF, but I feel it is a more active kind of photography.

 

[trickness]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

I'm afraid that you are 100% wrong. Perspective is solely a function of distance.  If you move closer or further the perspective will change, no matter what lens you use. If you remain stationary, changing the focal length will "crop" or "expand" the image, but the scene cannot change - obviously. You are tricked by the fact that your 21 close-up will be taken from a closer distance than your 35 or 75 closeup.

I am not tricked by the fact that when I take a photograph with a 21, it will look different then when I take a photograph with a 75 - objects that are closer appear much closer with the wide angle, and objects at the edges visually distort. This can be used to great effect, as it was most notably, in the work of Jeanloup Sieff. The lens can be used to change the presentation of perspective in the image.

You can make whatever semantic argument you want to, post a link to any blog that you want to that dismisses this notion. You can call it a trick and perhaps that’s what it is, but it can’t just be achieved by walking closer or further away with all focal lengths at all distances. And to suggest to someone that all they need to do is walk a little bit closer to the subject and it will look exactly the same as any other lens is not 100% correct.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by trickness

[Qwertynm]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

vor 1 Stunde schrieb trickness:

I am not tricked by the fact that when I take a photograph with a 21, it will look different then when I take a photograph with a 75

When you take a photograph with a 21 on a tripod and remain stationary at the same location (you don‘t move the camera) and take a shot with the 75 and then go on to crop out the field of view out of the 21 to the image you took with the 75mm the contents, the compression are the same because you did not alter your perspective. Sure, a 21 isn’t a 75mm lens, you lost resolution and the perceived depth of field changes but not the contents of the image. That’s how crop sensor work. Otherwise your 4mm iPhone camera would look like a fisheye and clearly, it does not, because with a tiny sensor behind it, you get the same fov like with your Q2: a 28mm (aeq.) field of view. 
 

and to steer the conversation back on topic, the 28mm focal lenght of the Q is, in combination with the high res sensor, a really versatile tool. Whether you want to crop and simulate different focallenghts or step closer and alter the perspective and thus getting a different picture is up to the photographer 

Edited December 7, 2022 by Qwertynm

[jaapv]

 

28 mm

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

70 mm

 

 

28 mm cropped to 70 mm AOV

Notice the difference in DOF, I should have stopped down a couple of stops..

 

 

21 hours ago, trickness said:

I am not tricked by the fact that when I take a photograph with a 21, it will look different then when I take a photograph with a 75 - objects that are closer appear much closer with the wide angle, and objects at the edges visually distort. This can be used to great effect, as it was most notably, in the work of Jeanloup Sieff. The lens can be used to change the presentation of perspective in the image.

You can make whatever semantic argument you want to, post a link to any blog that you want to that dismisses this notion. You can call it a trick and perhaps that’s what it is, but it can’t just be achieved by walking closer or further away with all focal lengths at all distances. And to suggest to someone that all they need to do is walk a little bit closer to the subject and it will look exactly the same as any other lens is not 100% correct.

Which I never suggested . I don't need to refer to a blog for basic photography 1.1. I am happy that you finally twigged to the fact that you have to move to change the perspective and that changing the focal length will not make one whit of difference to the perspective if you stay in the same spot as I have been saying all along.

Even Mr. Seif had to walk up to his subject to get the perspective he wanted and choose the right lens to get the framing he wanted... 

 

 

[trickness]

1 hour ago, Qwertynm said:

When you take a photograph with a 21 on a tripod and remain stationary at the same location (you don‘t move the camera) and take a shot with the 75 and then go on to crop out the field of view out of the 21 to the image you took with the 75mm the contents, the compression are the same because you did not alter your perspective. Sure, a 21 isn’t a 75mm lens, you lost resolution and the perceived depth of field changes but not the contents of the image. That’s how crop sensor work. Otherwise your 4mm iPhone camera would look like a fisheye and clearly, it does not, because with a tiny sensor behind it, you get the same fov like with your Q2: a 28mm (aeq.) field of view. 
 

and to steer the conversation back on topic, the 28mm focal lenght of the Q is, in combination with the high res sensor, a really versatile tool. Whether you want to crop and simulate different focallenghts or step closer and alter the perspective and thus getting a different picture is up to the photographer 

The 75 will not distort the subject matter towards the edges of the frame no matter how much you crop it, unlike the 21mm. And you're going to get less depth of field at 75mm than you are at 21mm at most of your aperture range.

On the Q2 of course, because the native image is 28mm, its not going to look like exactly like a 50/75 once it is cropped.

All this to say that stepping closer or cropping is not going to provide a 100% equivalent looking shot. Which has been pointed out in multiple reviews of the Q2 and its cropping feature. Not sure if we're agreeing or disagreeing here....

 

 

[Qwertynm]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb trickness:

All this to say that stepping closer or cropping is not going to provide a 100% equivalent looking shot. Which has been pointed out in multiple reviews of the Q2 and its cropping feature. Not sure if we're agreeing or disagreeing here....

I agree with you on this part. A cropped image is not the same as moving closer because of the different perspective. We agree on different perspective = different relations of the contents within the frame to the camera.

Assume two optically perfect lenses. One a 21mm for FF and one 75mm. Now mount the 21mm to a sensor that gives a 75mm FF aeq. image. They will distort exactly the same towards the edges. Turn it around and mount the 75mm lens onto a sensor that gives a 21mm FF aeq. image and again, they will distort exactly the same (given same perspective and optical perfection of the lens). Distortion comes from the perspective not the lens itself. To bring up the smartphone again, that lens would have to distort massively given its short focal length. But it does not more so than a 28mm on a Q2. Now if you meant to compare both these lenses on FF then I'd say you can't because you won't be able to fit the same contents into the frame without changing perspective. 

vor 6 Stunden schrieb trickness:

On the Q2 of course, because the native image is 28mm, its not going to look like exactly like a 50/75 once it is cropped.

Assume an image on a Q2 at F/5.6 or F/8.0 and crop it to 50/75 and take the same with a M11 and 50/75 lens and you'll get the exact same contents in the image given the same perspective. You are right that a crop adjusts the perceived depth of field so we adjust for the aperture. Stopped down, the image will be basically the same except for the loss in resolution.

You can easily test that: just hold out your hands infront of your eyes and form a rectangle. Move the rectangle further and closer. What changed? The contents of your "image" but not the perspective as you haven't moved your head but only the "focal length". 

 

[jaapv]

8 hours ago, trickness said:

The 75 will not distort the subject matter towards the edges of the frame no matter how much you crop it, unlike the 21mm. And you're going to get less depth of field at 75mm than you are at 21mm at most of your aperture range.

On the Q2 of course, because the native image is 28mm, its not going to look like exactly like a 50/75 once it is cropped.

All this to say that stepping closer or cropping is not going to provide a 100% equivalent looking shot. Which has been pointed out in multiple reviews of the Q2 and its cropping feature. Not sure if we're agreeing or disagreeing here....

 

 

We must differentiatie two types of distortion here: there is: geometrical distortion (pincushion, barrel, moustache) and ideally that should be corrected optimally on your wideangle lens. Then there is perspective distortion (eggshaped heads) and that, again, is determined by distance. Once again it is caused by  moving in on your subject and would be the same if you used the longer lens at the same oblique angle at the same short distance.

I should add that optically or digitally correcting geometrical distortion can influence perspective distortion, depending on lens design, so this aspect is not an absolute. 
Best crop from the center like the Q does. 
 

To change perspective you must move the relative position of the components of the scene before you, as that is the very definition of perspective. You can do so by moving. No lens I capable of shifting physical objects unless you use a PC (perspective control) shift lens - which… moves.

And yes, DOF will change when cropping. That is caused by the absolute size of the aperture. If you are going to “zoom” by cropping you must keep the relative size of the aperture by stopping down if you want DOF to be the same. 

[LocalHero1953]

I suspect many of these discussions arise from an understanding of the word 'perspective' in what is an international forum. Photographic perspective (the apparent spatial and size relationship between objects in a scene) is not the same as (e.g.) 'perspective on life'; nor is it the same as 'keeping X in perspective'. It would not be surprising if dictionaries and translation bots are unhelpful, if the usage in English is ambiguous.

Edited December 7, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[Olaf_ZG]

Seems that discussion is repeating itself. Again.

Nevertheless, as I just picked up the Q2, I better start practicing 😎

[Qwertynm]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb LocalHero1953:

Photographic perspective

I think it’s save to say that in a photo forum people are talking about photography and photographic perspective. Now, I too am not a native english speaker and I hope I haven’t contributed to any misunderstandings. But afaic this whole discussion started because someone said that the difference between 28 and 35 is „negligible“ and can be bridged by changing perspective (zoom with your feet), which I believe is fair to point out that is not the same as cropping or shooting with 35mm. 
 

discussions about aequivalence in photography forums arise time and again as many people have a hard time understanding it and there are a lot of misconceptions about it. It’s always fun to learn something new. I think that’s why many people visit such forums. It’s the reason I do anyway. Happy shooting

[Olaf_ZG]

First portrait with the Q. Not the best as I am still extremely shy to ask strangers for a portrait and then I rush when they say yes. Anyway, this guy seems to approve that I changed my mind 😎

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[mhoutman]

On 11/26/2022 at 7:06 PM, Olaf_ZG said:

.... waiting for a Q3 doesn’t make sense and I am now negotiating on a Q2.

Sorry to ask but why does waiting for a Q3 makes no sense ? I am asking as my son considers selling his Panasonic G9 with all gear and buying a Q2 ...or better wait for the Q3. I think when spending this amount of money carefully choose the moment to jump in.

[Olaf_ZG]

6 minutes ago, mhoutman said:

Sorry to ask but why does waiting for a Q3 makes no sense ? I am asking as my son considers selling his Panasonic G9 with all gear and buying a Q2 ...or better wait for the Q3. I think when spending this amount of money carefully choose the moment to jump in.

Cause the Q2 is all I need, a newer camera will always have more but one might not need it. Besides, the Q2 is here and now, the Q3 still (far?) away.

Some dealers are offering demo models which might be a good deal as one can save upto 15%.

[M11 for me]

Am 27.11.2022 um 09:35 schrieb LocalHero1953:

Not if your toes are on the river bank, cliff edge, volcano rim, in the safari pick-up looking at the lion........

Then you crop to 35mm . . . or you find a perspective for 28mm.

And btw 28mm is really not far away from 35mm. As I have both on the M11 I cannot talk; but I often think that when you have 28mm you do not need 35mm. And do not tell me that you never crop 😗

[DenverSteve]

On 12/12/2022 at 3:56 AM, mhoutman said:

Sorry to ask but why does waiting for a Q3 makes no sense ? I am asking as my son considers selling his Panasonic G9 with all gear and buying a Q2 ...or better wait for the Q3. I think when spending this amount of money carefully choose the moment to jump in.

Two reasons come to mind.  If you need/want a camera now. Also, because a Q3 doesn't exist. If, and when, it does exist, it may still have a 28mm lens.  Leica rumors have circulated for decades and many of them (like the CL2) never materialized.  So, waiting for something that doesn't exist that might have different specs - if it ever exists, is futile.  I don't believe Leica will abandon the 28mm lens.  They may come out with a Q3-28 & Q3-50, but I doubt it.  It has been a spectacularly selling product for Leica so, if it ain't broke............... They may add something like internal memory but there's not a lot to change with the Q2. There's no reason to add a higher-resolution sensor, but that could be on the table.  There are far too many rumors to speculate so, we'll see, when we see.  In the meantime there's no reason not to purchase 

Edited December 26, 2022 by DenverSteve

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica Q

[Farrell Gallery]

12 hours ago, DenverSteve said:

Two reasons come to mind.  If you need/want a camera now. Also, because a Q3 doesn't exist. If, and when, it does exist, it may still have a 28mm lens.  Leica rumors have circulated for decades and many of them (like the CL2) never materialized.  So, waiting for something that doesn't exist that might have different specs - if it ever exists, is futile.  I don't believe Leica will abandon the 28mm lens.  They may come out with a Q3-28 & Q3-50, but I doubt it.  It has been a spectacularly selling product for Leica so, if it ain't broke............... They may add something like internal memory but there's not a lot to change with the Q2. There's no reason to add a higher-resolution sensor, but that could be on the table.  There are far too many rumors to speculate so, we'll see, when we see.  In the meantime there's no reason not to purchase 

This....a camera that does not exist is useless. The Q2 is a beast and is being used now.