We don't need a Q camera with a 35/50/75/whatever lens

[Qwertynm]

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Am 17.12.2022 um 19:04 schrieb DenverSteve:

Obviously if Leica is selling Q2s to 4500+ people, those sales are taking away from other Leica sales. (...) They are buying the Q2 because they want a Leica.  Now,(...), those Leica sales have to come from some other Leica products.

How do you conclude that Leica is its own market? Do you know how many Q owners have Leica Ms or SLs and how many have other systems? I'd say your statements come from your point of view but might not be true for everybody in the market for a Q. I have a Canon R5 and many EF lenses. If I want a small 28mm lens Canon sells an f/2.8 version. If I want a fast 28mm Sigma sells a huge and heavy f/1.4 version. But neither combination is as small and fast as the Q. I have no interest in other Leica products. I'm in the market for a small, fast, compact, fixed wide angle FF camera to complement my CR5 with big lenses. That market is small, yes. But it's not Leica only and buying a Q does not equal not buying a 28mm summilux - two different market segments.

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[marchyman]

On 12/18/2022 at 5:02 AM, Simone_DF said:

it has a evf and autofocus

One does not HAVE to use autofocus.  I rarely do with my Q.  Manual focus with focus peaking isn't quite the same as a rangefinder, but it is close.  I go between M and Q with little change to operating habits.

[Simone_DF]

8 minutes ago, marchyman said:

One does not HAVE to use autofocus.  I rarely do with my Q.  Manual focus with focus peaking isn't quite the same as a rangefinder, but it is close.  I go between M and Q with little change to operating habits.

I would really like to see some stats of people that rarely use autofocus on an autofocus camera, because I suspect it’s a small niche

[Le Chef]

33 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

I would really like to see some stats of people that rarely use autofocus on an autofocus camera, because I suspect it’s a small niche

I very much doubt that data exists. Either you would have to gather it from the usage data of a panel of owners, and I’m not sure that specific data of autofocus vs manual focus is collected. Or a “Diary Panel” where owners would note when they used manual focus and for how many shots. Both are nice ideas on paper but impractical and not inexpensive so unlikely to happen.

[FrozenInTime]

35 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

I would really like to see some stats of people that rarely use autofocus on an autofocus camera, because I suspect it’s a small niche

Another interesting statistic would be how many use back button single shot AF. 

[M11 for me]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb FrozenInTime:

Another interesting statistic would be how many use back button single shot AF. 

I do and I akways did 😇

Not on Q but on Canon 5D (Mk 1 to Mk 4) and now Canon R5.

But the question was about statistics. A sample of 1 is a bit poor. But I am sure that you'll find much more.

[Lucena]

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1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

I would really like to see some stats of people that rarely use autofocus on an autofocus camera, because I suspect it’s a small niche

I am one of them… never been comfortable with AF

[DenverSteve]

17 hours ago, Qwertynm said:

How do you conclude that Leica is its own market? Do you know how many Q owners have Leica Ms or SLs and how many have other systems? I'd say your statements come from your point of view but might not be true for everybody in the market for a Q. I have a Canon R5 and many EF lenses. If I want a small 28mm lens Canon sells an f/2.8 version. If I want a fast 28mm Sigma sells a huge and heavy f/1.4 version. But neither combination is as small and fast as the Q. I have no interest in other Leica products. I'm in the market for a small, fast, compact, fixed wide angle FF camera to complement my CR5 with big lenses. That market is small, yes. But it's not Leica only and buying a Q does not equal not buying a 28mm summilux - two different market segments.

What I said (you can reread) is that it would cut into Summilux sales.  No question in my mind. However, I never said that every buyer would have otherwise purchased a Summilux 50. Cut into does not translate into "a market of its own".  Sorry you misunderstood. 

[Le Chef]

12 minutes ago, DenverSteve said:

What I said (you can reread) is that it would cut into Summilux sales.  No question in my mind. However, I never said that every buyer would have otherwise purchased a Summilux 50. Cut into does not translate into "a market of its own".  Sorry you misunderstood. 

I suspect not. You need to do a source of business and propensity-to-buy study. It would more than likely show little cannibalization of sales. The concepts of an ICL and Q2 with a fixed lens are more likely to lead to a “Plus One” purchase rather than an “Minus One” purchase. If Leica saw cannibalization it would likely kill the Q line off as a threat to the M line of cameras and lenses.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Le Chef

[Qwertynm]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb DenverSteve:

you can reread

Maybe you go ahead and reread what my response was adressing in your statement. Because cleary you are the one who is not understanding. @Simone_DFquestioned your claim that a Q with a 50mm cuts into sales of an M and Summilux. For you that's "simple pragmatic economics". I agree that to some degree those two segments overlap but certainly not a 100%. You make it seem as if those two cameras/systems are interchangeable and everyone who buys a Q just wants a Leica and would otherwise get another Leica, which they are not. Not all sales will be either M+Summilux or Q50. Even a potential M camera with EVF is a different segment than a rangefinder M. That's just simple pragmatic market segmentation.

[Simone_DF]

What people fail to understand is that what matters is not missed sales (aka "cannibalization") of Summilux Ms, but if the amount of sales of a Q with 50mm will compensate the loss and generate even more revenue.

This is what is happening with the 28mm Q, I'm sure there are a few M shooters that ditched their M for the Q, but the sales of the Q exceeded the loss of a few Ms.

[jaapv]

On 12/17/2022 at 7:04 PM, DenverSteve said:

and get a free attached body

And throw a perfectly good lens in the bin when anything happens to the body or it becomes obsolete.

[Simone_DF]

12 hours ago, Lucena said:

I am one of them… never been comfortable with AF

I do use manual focus too, in particular with M lenses adapted on the SL2s. 

But if you look around, other companies invest A LOT of money into their autofocus systems, and every time there's a new camera on the market, one of the highlights is how AF has been improved. Which means AF is important to the vast majority of users. And this includes L Mount and Leica users.

[Farrell Gallery]

While everyone argues, I'm out with the Q2 photographing a foggy cold morning  

[DenverSteve]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

And throw a perfectly good lens in the bin when anything happens to the body or it becomes obsolete.

If/when that happens, I can afford to purchase the replacement de jure. Many Leica owners own, or actually "collect", Leica equipment. Some never use them at all. I'm a photographer who ls lucky enough to be able to purchase anything I like.  By the time something I purchase has become "obsolete", someone has already paid for it, for me, many times over.  Do you purchase camera equipment based on "anything happens to the body or it becomes obsolete", 5, 10, 15 + years down the road.  I certainly doubt it.  Are you selling your CL because it has been discontinued and may become obsolete?  Also, just so I know, are you moderating or just being contrary? 😉 I trust my Leica equipment to last for some time. By the time it "becomes obsolete", I will likely have purchased the Q3, 4 and/or whatever has replaced it. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by DenverSteve

[jaapv]

Well, I was happy to retain my 35-70 4.0 R. It makes a great standard zoom on my SL. 

[marchyman]

22 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

Another interesting statistic would be how many use back button single shot AF. 

Heh... when I don't use manual focus back button single shot (which works well enough on the original Q) is my second choice.  Perhaps I'm just weird 🙂