Will the M-A ever brass?

[BradS]

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I suppose that some chrome plating might wear off after a few decades of constant handling if the user perspired sulfuric acid or had skin roughness and hardness equivalent to 100 grit sand paper.

Edited November 19, 2022 by BradS

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[wattsy]

5 hours ago, williamj said:

I had another look at the Garry Winogrand documentary of 1982 on YT. By this point if he was responsible for the brassing it should show because he passed away in 1984 as noted above. I know this isn't 4K so we can't be definitive but I can't see any obvious brassing on the camera. It could be that the brassing was due to some other factor after he stopped using it. The fact that some people have questioned the wear pattern on the camera as being unrealistic may in fact be valid.

.

Winogrand probably owned more than one silver chrome M4 in his lifetime.

[Huss]

1 hour ago, BradS said:

I suppose that some chrome plating might wear off after a few decades of constant handling if the user perspired sulfuric acid or had skin roughness and hardness equivalent to 100 grit sand paper.

Last weekend I went hiking in the snow up in the mountains.  I took my MdA because I knew I didn’t need a rangefinder Leica.  The pics would be wide angle infinity type things.

Well, one thing led to another and I took a hard fall with the camera hitting ice and rocks. 
Not a single mark on it.  Not a scratch or knick.

 In the past I’ve owned Bessa L, R3A, Zeiss Ikon ZM and I can tell you those cameras would have been messed up.  So for those people who think Leica’s build and construction techniques are unnecessarily heavy, and that using brass is gratuitous, well they do that because that is how you build a camera to last.

[250swb]

3 hours ago, BradS said:

I suppose that some chrome plating might wear off after a few decades of constant handling if the user perspired sulfuric acid or had skin roughness and hardness equivalent to 100 grit sand paper.

But it isn’t a wild idea to consider it. There are a lot of instances where the finish of a guitar is influenced as much by the acid sweat of the user as general wear. Just to name three there is Rory Gallagher, Stevie Ray Vaughan and Bruce Springsteen who’s iconic Fender guitars all took an extra hit because they are usually used the entirety of the set and not swapped out for other guitars along the way. Not only do the chrome plated components suffer from sweat but also the paint. It’s a well documented example of heavy wear, and the way Winogrand used his camera is not so far away from gigging every night.

Edited November 19, 2022 by 250swb

[andrew01]

2 hours ago, Huss said:

Last weekend I went hiking in the snow up in the mountains.  I took my MdA because I knew I didn’t need a rangefinder Leica.  The pics would be wide angle infinity type things.

Well, one thing led to another and I took a hard fall with the camera hitting ice and rocks. 
Not a single mark on it.  Not a scratch or knick.

 In the past I’ve owned Bessa L, R3A, Zeiss Ikon ZM and I can tell you those cameras would have been messed up.  So for those people who think Leica’s build and construction techniques are unnecessarily heavy, and that using brass is gratuitous, well they do that because that is how you build a camera to last.

I do love the build of the M’s.  I have also owned a Bessa and agree it is not even close to the same build quality.  The Bessa build feels like a mid level japanese SLR.

I think the main reason for the M camera durability is the extra thick die cast aluminium chassis rather than the brass top and base plates. Aluminium is heavy if it is cast with thick walls.  The bottom opening design also adds to the rigidity.

[Mute-on]

12 hours ago, williamj said:

I had another look at the Garry Winogrand documentary of 1982 on YT. By this point if he was responsible for the brassing it should show because he passed away in 1984 as noted above. I know this isn't 4K so we can't be definitive but I can't see any obvious brassing on the camera. It could be that the brassing was due to some other factor after he stopped using it. The fact that some people have questioned the wear pattern on the camera as being unrealistic may in fact be valid.

.

Really? Exactly when in this video can you get a close up view of the bottom corner under his right hand that we see in the photos at post #11 (with the small dent and so called extreme wear)?

Even if the camera in the video and that in the photos is the same, the video offers absolutely no confirmation or repudiation of the authenticity of the wear in the photo IMHO. These theories of artificially accelerated wear are, quite frankly, nothing more or better than hysterical conspiracy theories.
 

Just because there are some people who deliberately enhance the wear on their Leicas in the electronic media saturation of the 21st century doesn’t mean that anyone had any interest in doing that whatsoever in the 1980s.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Mute-on

[Matlock]

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8 hours ago, Mute-on said:

Really? Exactly when in this video can you get a close up view of the bottom corner under his right hand that we see in the photos at post #11 (with the small dent and so called extreme wear)?

Even if the camera in the video and that in the photos is the same, the video offers absolutely no confirmation or repudiation of the authenticity of the wear in the photo IMHO. These theories of artificially accelerated wear are, quite frankly, nothing more or better than hysterical conspiracy theories.
 

Just because there are some people who deliberately enhance the wear on their Leicas in the electronic media saturation of the 21st century doesn’t mean that anyone had any interest in doing that whatsoever in the 1980s.

 

 

We could speculate on this for ever and never come up with the definitive answer. My feeling, as I have stated before, is that Gary had nothing to do with the rather strange wear and the puzzling pressure plate marks, but these occurred in the 19 years after his death in 1984 and before the photos were taken in 2003. We will probably never know.

[andrew01]

16 hours ago, Matlock said:

You will have to wait a while to find out as the M-A has only been available since 2014. 

I was taking the p!ss. Obviously no-one will ever use the camera in those conditions for that long. My 62 year old M3 has zero brassing.  

For those that want brassing, the black paint version is the one to get.

[jukka]

46 minutes ago, Matlock said:

 We will probably never know.

Well, here's a free tip for any camera/photography magazine journo: maybe do a bit of investigative journalism, interview the persons in question, and find out what happened to Garry's camera or multiple cameras (it was stated somewhere that he has been seen with two silver m4s, in addition to others). 

Often, to many mysteries there are perfectly natural and understandable explanations. Also in that case, this would make an interesting piece, and one that I would read.

[williamj]

Authentic brassing on a 1956 DS M3. The only *other* brassing on the camera is on the rewind knob, photo on request. The camera is not collector grade, with dents and scuff marks but intact vulcanite.

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[250swb]

It is pretty pointless trying to prove a bogus point if the camera being shown hasn't been used with the same intensity that Winogrand used his.

[Herr Barnack]

On 11/16/2022 at 9:44 PM, kivis said:

Will the M-A ever brass?

Yes, of course the M-A will brass. 

It just needs a little help, that's all -

 

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[Matlock]

58 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Yes, of course the M-A will brass. 

It just needs a little help, that's all -

 

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So you would recommend a belt sander over an orbital?

[Herr Barnack]

1 hour ago, Matlock said:

So you would recommend a belt sander over an orbital?

Now that I think about it, an orbital sander might produce a more natural look.  Either way, 100 grit is a must for the best results.

[Huss]

The suggestion of a belt or orbital sander is ridiculous, and you lot should be ashamed of yourselves.

For natural patina, it needs to be where you touch the camera in use.  This is why I recommend a thin pair of gloves with fine grit sand paper attached to the finger pad areas.  As you use your camera, the inevitable brassing is just accelerated.  And you will get a realistic finish.

[Herr Barnack]

19 hours ago, Huss said:

The suggestion of a belt or orbital sander is ridiculous, and you lot should be ashamed of yourselves.

For natural patina, it needs to be where you touch the camera in use.  This is why I recommend a thin pair of gloves with fine grit sand paper attached to the finger pad areas.  As you use your camera, the inevitable brassing is just accelerated.  And you will get a realistic finish.

All of us in these parts are ashamed of ourselves - profoundly ashamed, as are our friends and families.  $9000 cameras fitted with $7000 lenses - "Madness, I say! Sheer madness!!"

Here's hoping COOPH will take your idea of gloves with sandpaper fingertips and run with it.  "Leica M photographer gloves" or some such marketing shinola.  Perhaps there will even be a matching sandpaper covered rope camera strap...

Edited November 22, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Herr Barnack]

On 11/20/2022 at 6:11 AM, 250swb said:

It is pretty pointless trying to prove a bogus point if the camera being shown hasn't been used with the same intensity that Winogrand used his.

Posers gonna pose.

https://www.macfilos.com/2016/06/04/brassed-leica-m9-wear-and-tear-homework/

[kivis]

8 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Posers gonna pose.

https://www.macfilos.com/2016/06/04/brassed-leica-m9-wear-and-tear-homework/

Pretty shoddy

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ktmrider2]

Have an anniversary black chrome M4, looks like it came out of the box yesterday.  Black paint finish on numerous cameras has brassed over the past 55 years of photography but not silver or black chrome.  Do you want it to?

[lmans]

On 11/19/2022 at 4:32 PM, Mute-on said:

 

Just because there are some people who deliberately enhance the wear on their Leicas in the electronic media saturation of the 21st century doesn’t mean that anyone had any interest in doing that whatsoever in the 1980s.

 

 

Spot on....only in today's craze. Of course to be fair...anytime in history had their share of crazes; brass showing or whatever. jim