Chinese lenses

[Sully]

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As a working cinematographer, I could throw heaps of money into equipment because I could write it off on my taxes. Comes retirement...and I now have to actually pay for gear with real money of which I have precious little.  Living on my meager Social Security and my wonderful wife's pension, I can not afford to buy anything.  However, poverty does not kill desire completely.  I wanted to put my well loved and well used Elmarit 21mm F2.8 (1982) into my sleeping collection, but since the 21mm is a favorite, I needed a replacement.  New lenses were out of the question.  Used Leica lenses are still too much.  Off brand (Voigtlander, Zeiss,) were too much.  Then Amazon offers a one day deal on a Chinese TArtisan 21mm, F1.5, M mount for $363 plus free Prime delivery.   I could just barely afford it.  But how bad could it be?....  Go to YouTube for reviews....They all seemed to say the lens was OK....I splurge...The lens arrives...I try it on my M262....Compare old 21 with new 21 at F2.8...both look good to me.  I put them on SL2s and they still looked good (color, resolution, distortion).  All totally acceptable.  Is this new lens as good as other 21s?  Probably not.  But it is good enough to make pics that look just like my old Elmarit 21 which is fine by me. This lens tells me a lot about Chinese craftsmanship and design ability....All good! Does anyone else have this lens?  Has it held up under constant usage? What do you think?

Ciao,  Sully

[frame-it]

32 minutes ago, Sully said:

and design ability

aint they all copies of leica designs?

[budjames]

I used to work for a manufacturer of Commerical photographic and graphics arts processing machines. We did business all over the world. Kodak was our distributer in the Middle East and Asia. I worked with the Chinese and saw how they smiled at us while ripping off our design and cloning our equipment and spare parts. That was over 35 years ago. Since then Kodak and my former employer went out of business.

As a result of first hand experiences with the Chinese government, I have no interest in buying anything made in China if other options exist. It's hard to do, especially if you buy stuff from Amazon. I always try to source USA-made first followed by Europe for my stuff. Unfortunately, I cannot do this yet with my Apple gear.

For Leica, all of their stuff is expensive. We all know that. Fortunately, if you are shooting the M system, then buying Leica lenses are a great investment. That's all I buy. I have found that the more I shoot with my M, the fewer lenses I need. My last four travel vacations, I only brought my M10-R, and now M11, with a Leica 35mm lens. It's all I need. My iPhone Pro helps for the occasional ultra wide or moderate tele lens during my travels.

My M11 and APO-Summicron 35mm is my camera of choice these days. It's very liberating to have less equipment to worry about or fuss over which lens I should be using at the moment.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography.

[pedaes]

14 minutes ago, budjames said:

while ripping off our design and cloning our equipment

We have copyright, China has given itself right to copy.😬

[lct]

My experience with China made lenses is limited to one copy, a 7artisans 35/2 that is sharp at all apertures to the point that i can’t always tell which is which when compared to my Summicron 35/2 asph v1 or Ultron 35/2 asph. Its main flaws are flare when bright light sources are outside of the frame and rather busy bokeh. Distortion can also be an issue but it is easy to correct in PP. See:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/296081-7artisans-35mm-f20/#comments

[frame-it]

30 minutes ago, budjames said:

Unfortunately, I cannot do this yet with my Apple gear.

Huge difference between China and Taiwan, Foxconn is a Taiwanese Company, Not Chinese.

Edited November 12, 2022 by frame-it

[M Street Photographer]

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@budjames,  Unfortunately, your interpretation is not very helpful for TO. His financial situation does not allow it.

I know some photo friends who take pictures with Chinese lenses on an M. These are often very fast 0.95 lenses. These people are also dimmed very happy. The price-performance ratio is right. Processing is very good, imaging more than satisfactory.
I myself use a Chinese Fishey, which more than meets my requirements.
The Chinese cannot withstand a hard comparison with current Leica lenses. That would also be logical.
Considered on its own or in comparison with Voigtländer, I can see differences, but these are ok for me.
Finally, a well-known piece of wisdom: you don't cook any better with expensive pots. And what speaks against having fun with inexpensive goods and then later fulfilling a dream.
You can also improve your skills this way.
It's easy for you: Amazon offers the option of returning the goods if you don't like them.

Edited November 12, 2022 by M Street Photographer

[Chimichurri]

1 hour ago, Sully said:

I wanted to put my well loved and well used Elmarit 21mm F2.8 (1982) into my sleeping collection, but since the 21mm is a favorite, I needed a replacement.

Why did it need to go to sleep? I don’t get it. 

[Chimichurri]

1 hour ago, Sully said:

.Compare old 21 with new 21 at F2.8...both look good to me.  I put them on SL2s and they still looked good (color, resolution, distortion).  All totally acceptable.

So the 21mm Leica lens is working fine? 

I don’t understand what’s going on here to be honest. You like 21mm. You have a Leica 21mm that is working. What’s the problem again? 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Chimichurri

[jankap]

1 hour ago, frame-it said:

aint they all copies of leica designs?

I don't think, that they are copies. More lookalikes.

[lct]

2 hours ago, frame-it said:

aint they all copies of leica designs?

The 7artisans 35/2 is a Sonnar design IINW.

[BradS]

3 hours ago, Sully said:

As a working cinematographer, I could throw heaps of money into equipment because I could write it off on my taxes. Comes retirement...and I now have to actually pay for gear with real money of which I have precious little.  Living on my meager Social Security and my wonderful wife's pension, I can not afford to buy anything.  However, poverty does not kill desire completely.  I wanted to put my well loved and well used Elmarit 21mm F2.8 (1982) into my sleeping collection, but since the 21mm is a favorite, I needed a replacement.  New lenses were out of the question.  Used Leica lenses are still too much.  Off brand (Voigtlander, Zeiss,) were too much.  Then Amazon offers a one day deal on a Chinese TArtisan 21mm, F1.5, M mount for $363 plus free Prime delivery.   I could just barely afford it.  But how bad could it be?....  Go to YouTube for reviews....They all seemed to say the lens was OK....I splurge...The lens arrives...I try it on my M262....Compare old 21 with new 21 at F2.8...both look good to me.  I put them on SL2s and they still looked good (color, resolution, distortion).  All totally acceptable.  Is this new lens as good as other 21s?  Probably not.  But it is good enough to make pics that look just like my old Elmarit 21 which is fine by me. This lens tells me a lot about Chinese craftsmanship and design ability....All good! Does anyone else have this lens?  Has it held up under constant usage? What do you think?

Ciao,  Sully

You have an M typ262 and an SL2s but cannot afford a decent lens ???

[RexGig0]

I think that if buying a Chinese lens, I would be concerned about support from the manufacturer, in the future. A future trade “war,” or embargo, or even a renewed Cold War or worse, could interfere with shipping a lens to and from China. (This is not intended to be a political statement, but simply a practical reality statement.) I hope for the best, for the author of the original post. My “tone” is not meant to be negative.

If I did not already have two of them, a Zeiss ZM f/4.5 and Voigtlander VM f/1.4, and really needed a budget 21mm lens, well, there are pre-owned Voigtlander 21mm lenses, for which some favorable reviews have been posted, listed for quite low prices. Notably, it is evident that I am not prejudiced against Asian-manufactured lenses.

I would also consider adapting a different system’s lens to the M camera. I have a quite like-able Nikon F-mount 20mm Nikkor-UD manual-focus lens, a “pre-AI” that was converted* to AI specs, which I bought, for VERY little money, when I needed a budget wide-angle Nikon SLR lens. A best-quality Novoflex LEM/NIK adapter can be found, today, on the evil-bay, pre-owned, for $200. Budget adapters are available for considerably less. I could zone/scale-focus this lens with the nicely-done scales on the lens body, which I have already done, on Nikon DSLRs, or, use Live View. 

I just did a search on the evil-bay. That pre-owned Novoflex LEM/NIK adapter, which is on my Watch List, and a decent Nikkor-UD, would cost less than $350 US, today. (I am already watching the adapter, because there are several Nikon lenses I would like to try on an M body.)

*A “pre-AI” lens would not need to be AI-coverted, in order to be used with an adapter, on a Leica M or other camera. The “AI” parts are specifically to serve a function on Nikon SLR camera models made after a specific date. A “pre-AI” F-mount lens, if not AI-coverted, can physically break a part on some Nikon DSLRs. The vulnerable part does not exist on adapters made to use Nikon F lenses on other systems.

[Huss]

As others have mentioned, not sure how you are saving money when you already have a Leica 21mm lens and decided to buy another 21mm lens.

The way I see it is you’ve lived a good hard working life and now are retired.  I assume you are no longer young.  What are you saving your gear for?  Use it.  You deserve it, it deserves it.

[84bravo]

I've been using 7A and TTA lenses along with my top shelf Leica lenses. I have some duplicates of both brands. I've found that about half of the Chinese lenses that I've tried were quite excellent and the cost/value is incredible. When the lenses are good, they are very, very good. The 7A 28mm f1.4 and the TTA 50mm f1.4 are examples of excellent lenses that punch way above their weight. I have a TTA 11mm fisheye that was purchased under $300 for a specific project (I am a professional photographer) that filled the need perfectly.

 

With that said, when their lenses are not very good, they can be very bad. The 7A 50mm f1.1 and the TTA 35mm f1.4 are examples. IMO the Chinese lenses are worth a try if you're on a limited budget. The 7A 28mm f1.4 is so good, and I liked the look of a very fast WA, that I purchased a Leica 28mm f1.4. The 7A is about 90% of the image quality of the Leica, but at about 8% of the price.

 

As for Chinese lenses being stolen copies of Leica designs or intellectual property, that's generally not true in the case of 7A and TTA. They seem to be derivitives of the old designs that have been used for years by a variety of manufacturers. That said, I'm in agreement with most folks who believe that Chinese government is exploiting intellectual property rights worldwide. I try to avoid Chinese products because of that, but it's very hard to justify the difference between a $400 28mm f1.4 and a $7000 28mm f1.4.

 

A bigger concern is the human rights violations that are happening in China that allows such cheap products to be produced. Living in the USA I know that the majority of the items in my house are Chinese made. It's very difficult to avoid.

[pippy]

First of all its important to bear in mind that Chinese lenses vary enormously from one particular brand to another (and sometimes within each brand!).

As far as the OP's question goes; I only have one TTArtisans lens which is their 28mm f5.6 'Summaron Lookalike' and, from images I've seen posted, I actually prefer the rendering of the TTA to the Leica original. The build quality is highly impressive and in comparison to the original the optical design is, despite what the exterior of the lens might lead one to expect, a completely new computation with a different number of elements in a different number of groups. 

In terms of sturdiness I see no reason to doubt that the lens will continue to perform superbly nor to think that it will shake itself apart anytime in the distant - never mind near - future.

I have a similar high regard for another Chinese lens I own; the Light Lens Lab 'reverse-engineered' 35mm f2 '8 element' reincarnation of the first version of the 35mm f2 Summicron. Magnificent lens (I was out with it today as a matter of fact).

In conclusion I have no reason to worry that the TTA 21 offering should prove to be a disappointment.

Philip.

Edited November 12, 2022 by pippy

[Jeff S]

24 minutes ago, pippy said:

In conclusion I have no reason to doubt that the TTA 21 offering should prove to be a disappointment.

 

I know what you meant to say, Phillip. 😉

Jeff

[pippy]

3 hours ago, frame-it said:

aint they all copies of leica designs?

Not optically. For instance and as has already been said the 7A 35 f2 uses the classic optical formula of the Zeiss Sonnar; the TTA 21mm f5.6 looks like the Summaron externally but optically is an all new computation featuring more elements / groups and so on...

Anyhow; when I was out today I had five (small) lenses with me; four Leica and the abovementioned LLL '8-element'. Of the Leica-branded lenses? One, the 21mm f4 Super-Angulon, was designed and made by Schneider - it was only branded 'Leitz'. Another, the 50mm f1.5 Summarit (M), uses an optical design formulated by Taylor, Taylor & Hobson. Only two of the four Leica lenses had been designed by Leica themselves.

As has been discussed before elsewehere in the forum; if we start to discuss 'Who Copied Who?' in terms of optical designs things can get very complicated very quickly.

Philip.

Edited November 12, 2022 by pippy

[pippy]

2 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

😉I know what you meant to say, Phillip...

DOH!

Thanks for the head's up, Jeff! Fixed it (and sacked my proof-reader at the same time!).

Philip.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[lct]

2 hours ago, Huss said:

As others have mentioned, not sure how you are saving money when you already have a Leica 21mm lens and decided to buy another 21mm lens.

The Leica lens the OP's referring to is an Elmarit 21/2.8 from 1982. I have no experience with this lens but i suspect it may cause red edge issues on inferior  digital M bodies, i mean earlier to the M11. Would be a question to ask connoisseurs of this lens like our colleague @adan to be sure. Anyway it would be interesting to know how Chinese 21mm lenses behave re red edge as a comparison.

Edited November 12, 2022 by lct