Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 1, 2007 Share #41 Posted October 1, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Yes i know it is getting better and as technology gets better so does the noise levels and the new Nikon does look pretty good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 1, 2007 Posted October 1, 2007 Hi Guest guy_mancuso, Take a look here Maybe M9 will Have New Nikon D3 Sensor?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
luigi bertolotti Posted October 1, 2007 Share #42 Posted October 1, 2007 This ISO 6400 shot by Dave Black shows why a lot of sports shooters will be toting the D3. Personally, I prefer the more film-like look of images from the M8 at lower ISOs and would much rather shoot with a nocti for low light images. But if my living depended on shooting in situations like this one, I'd have the D3s for sure. BTW, not much noise to find in this shot, Guy, unless you count the sound of the skates scraping on the ice. TOUCHE'... apart from the detail that in this forum only Leica related images had to be attached... well if the above is really shot at 6400, I admit is impressive at all: I wonder... - OR the sensor is really a tech leap - OR the noise reduction Software is exceptionally well tuned. OK, a very "digital" pic... but for a sport action image is an astonishing result. I understand why so many pros, in the forum, clearly state the won't never abandon their DSLRs... I feel the emotional need to take my M8 and kindly whisper to her "...don't worry... you are anyway the best for me..." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted October 1, 2007 Share #43 Posted October 1, 2007 I feel the emotional need to take my M8 and kindly whisper to her "...don't worry... you are anyway the best for me..." I feel the same way about mine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted October 1, 2007 Share #44 Posted October 1, 2007 I think we all do and we all want faster ISO with less noise. I would be real happy with a very clean 1250 , i just don't find the need to go faster but that is me and YMMV Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted October 2, 2007 Share #45 Posted October 2, 2007 1. Yes, the Nikon D3 has kicked the high ISO standard up a notch (or two). And when Leica gets around to the M9, I hope they at least consider Nikon's approach to the full frame sensor - bigger pixels, not just more pixels. Although there is more to the D3's performance than just the pixel size: CMOS design allows for pre-amplification of the signal before it even leaves the pixel; Nikon's "D-Lighting" curve, now built into the camera, also boosts the shadows and improves apparent dynamic range; and I'm sure they are also using a sophisticated NR algorithm. 2. I doubt Leica will drop Kodak sensors and buy something from a competitor. Kodak already knows how to do the offset microlenses, critical to an M (and even more so if the sensor grows to full-frame). More likely (and frankly, better for advancing the technology overall) I would expect Leica to go their own way, as they usually do. For example, Kodak just got a patent for some new alternative designs to the classic Bayer color filter mosaic (also a Kodak invention). That use unfiltered pixels, which thus receive 3x the light as filtered ones, for capturing brightness, in addition to a scattering of red/green/blue pixels for color capture. Leica might get equal or even better high ISO performance than the D3 by just sticking with Kodak and arranging to be the first to use this new "white-light-Bayer" pattern. 3. I love my M8s. But they are - challenged - in low light. And to me low light means shooting in a cavern-like setting at 1/250th sec so I can capture motion, not just carefully hand-holding at 1/45th. And working with all my lenses, not just the 50mm field of view @ f/1. Yes, firmware 1.107 has tightened the ISO 640/1250 "grain" of the M8 visibly, and that's good. But what I really need is at least another stop - ISO 2500(3200) with no more noise of the current 1250, and especially no streaky noise banding artifacts. I used to shoot high-school gym basketball - 1/250th @ f/1.4 and develop the Tri-X in Dektol, which worked out to about EI 3200 (pre TMax/Delta days). Grainy, but an even grain. I'd like to be able to shoot in that light, 1/250th @ f/2, in color, and get at least "color Tri-X" quality. Which is about where the D3 seems to be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrycioni Posted October 2, 2007 Share #46 Posted October 2, 2007 I had the opportunity to shoot with the Nikon D3 (a walk down Toronto's Younge St. from King to the Eatons Center and then a Jay's baseball game this past Saturday - I live in Vancouver ). The D3 is choke-full of features, the high ISO is likely the best on any DSLR being sold at this point. The new 14-24 F2.8 is spectacular and will likely come-in well under $2000 and on the full frame D3 it is was, simply put, beyond excellent. The 600mm F4 VR I shot with was a gas and also an outstanding performer - it would be nice to own one (about the price of an M8 body these days). The D3 is a pro shooters tool - some of those same pro shooters have bought or at least want an M8 for the same reasons we want the M8. The D3 weighs nearly 3lbs and when you put the 14-24 on it it goes to a near whooping 6lbs. Although possible putting a 600mm lens on M8 is almost counter intuitive - they are two different tools, you decide if you need both. If Leica could find a way to give us a D3 LIKE sensor in the next rev and keep it under $10 thou it would be one hell of a camera - no question about that. The high ISO performance of the D3 is worth the price of admission as is the auto focus. Did I mention D3 battery life - totally amazing. Live Veiw really works..... and can be very useful. Best to all. Terry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted October 2, 2007 Share #47 Posted October 2, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Chasseur D'Images has just published a D3 preview, with results from their noise test, side-by-side with other cameras. The D2X at ISO 3200 has about the same noise as the D3 at 25600 (and the 1D3 at ISO 6400)! At ISO 6400 the D3 is smooth as a baby's bum. This camera will reset the noise target for quite a while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pluton Posted October 2, 2007 Share #48 Posted October 2, 2007 I EXPECT Leica to issue a full frame "M9" or whatever; I'd really like it if they'd get rid of the idiot bar-code on the lens mount and just use a list menu for the different lenses/focal lengths(Nikon has it so it can't be THAT complicated!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted October 3, 2007 Author Share #49 Posted October 3, 2007 Suppose the rumored Nikon RF became available and used the D3 or D300 sensor. I think Leica might find itself scrambling to survive, especially if Nikon offered new high quality glass tailored to the new RF but including AF with their new AF chips. I would buy one in a heart beat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted October 3, 2007 Share #50 Posted October 3, 2007 Suppose the rumored Nikon RF became available and used the D3 or D300 sensor. I think Leica might find itself scrambling to survive, especially if Nikon offered new high quality glass tailored to the new RF but including AF with their new AF chips. I would buy one in a heart beat. John, you express I thought I kept for myself when saw the D3/6400 ASA pic : "let's hope they don't make a RF with THIS sensor"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 3, 2007 Share #51 Posted October 3, 2007 I EXPECT Leica to issue a full frame "M9" or whatever; I'd really like it if they'd get rid of the idiot bar-code on the lens mount and just use a list menu for the different lenses/focal lengths(Nikon has it so it can't be THAT complicated!) I hope not. I would NOT like having to go to the LCD and buttons each time I change lenses... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted October 3, 2007 Share #52 Posted October 3, 2007 Same here Jaap. A step backwards IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted October 3, 2007 Share #53 Posted October 3, 2007 Suppose the rumored Nikon RF became available and used the D3 or D300 sensor. I think Leica might find itself scrambling to survive, especially if Nikon offered new high quality glass tailored to the new RF but including AF with their new AF chips. A rangefinder camera with a sensor optimized for a DSLR? And an AF module for a DSLR that is useless without a mirror? Does that make any sense? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted October 3, 2007 Share #54 Posted October 3, 2007 Suppose the rumored Nikon RF became available and used the D3 or D300 sensor. I think Leica might find itself scrambling to survive, especially if Nikon offered new high quality glass tailored to the new RF but including AF with their new AF chips. I would buy one in a heart beat. Don't hold your breath. Competing with Canon takes all the resources they can marshal, why would they divert money and engineering resources to go after Leica's minuscule market? After so many years of playing second fiddle to Canon and now finally having a product that outdoes Canon's I'd expect the financial guy that tried to make the case that they should now focus on the RF market would quickly be shown the door:) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj55 Posted October 3, 2007 Share #55 Posted October 3, 2007 How about a Cosina/Zeiss with a D3/D300 sensor? Wonder why Cosina renew their lenses with M mount - without coding! Leica will be a sitting duck if they don't make the M8 more compatible IMO! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 3, 2007 Share #56 Posted October 3, 2007 I'm sure, A.J., that Leica is watching developments with interest... For the time being, the new Summarits must have caused some head-scratching at the Zeiss headquarters. And without coding, well, patent lawsuits that are lost tend to get costly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj55 Posted October 3, 2007 Share #57 Posted October 3, 2007 If Nikon supplies the software, the menu will have an entry for selecting the lens! No need for coding. Leica lenses can be used of course! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 3, 2007 Share #58 Posted October 3, 2007 Hmmm, as I said, change the lens, have to go into the menu, not my idea of progress, nor fun.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cme4brain Posted October 3, 2007 Share #59 Posted October 3, 2007 Hmmm, as I said, change the lens, have to go into the menu, not my idea of progress, nor fun.... I have been watching this thread with interest. I *do* advocate a menu choice of telling the camera what lens is mounted in addtion to the lens coding. That allows non-leica lenses (and older Leica glass) to work on the camera, yet retains the ability of those buying Leica glass to have the ability to have their coded lenses automatically tell the camera what it is. Odd how some of you dismiss the menu choice of lens selection as a "step backward, awkward"; yet you wear your thumbs out on the scroll wheel setting and resetting WB, ISO, EV, etc. The lens menu selection allows an open platform, which of course Leica (the most narcissistic camera maker out there) will not do for fear it will not sell one lens. Leica chose the best chip at the time from the manufacturer who could meet their design requirements, including the eccentric microlenses. There are certainly better higher speed chips out there, and I would like to see Leica use them. A 5D or D3 chip with appropriate microlenses, even with the crop factor, would be great! I hope they do it in my lifetime. In reality however, Leica moves very slowly, so I am not holding my breath. Just look back at the older threads and see how much we were ranting and raving about the high ISO performance of the M8- has that somehow changed? These other higher ISO cameras have better chips to be sure, but review after review of them state that those chips "needs better lenses". Do you think DSLR lenses can match Leica/Zeiss/Voigt glass? Cameras are tools, the appropriate one for the right job. No professional will lose a DSLR for some jobs as a rangefinder, even as good as an M8 is, can be good for some jobs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted October 3, 2007 Share #60 Posted October 3, 2007 I have been watching this thread with interest. I *do* advocate a menu choice of telling the camera what lens is mounted in addtion to the lens coding. That allows non-leica lenses (and older Leica glass) to work on the camera, yet retains the ability of those buying Leica glass to have the ability to have their coded lenses automatically tell the camera what it is. Odd how some of you dismiss the menu choice of lens selection as a "step backward, awkward"; yet you wear your thumbs out on the scroll wheel setting and resetting WB, ISO, EV, etc. The lens menu selection allows an open platform, which of course Leica (the most narcissistic camera maker out there) will not do for fear it will not sell one lens. Leica chose the best chip at the time from the manufacturer who could meet their design requirements, including the eccentric microlenses. There are certainly better higher speed chips out there, and I would like to see Leica use them. A 5D or D3 chip with appropriate microlenses, even with the crop factor, would be great! I hope they do it in my lifetime. In reality however, Leica moves very slowly, so I am not holding my breath. Just look back at the older threads and see how much we were ranting and raving about the high ISO performance of the M8- has that somehow changed? These other higher ISO cameras have better chips to be sure, but review after review of them state that those chips "needs better lenses". Do you think DSLR lenses can match Leica/Zeiss/Voigt glass? Cameras are tools, the appropriate one for the right job. No professional will lose a DSLR for some jobs as a rangefinder, even as good as an M8 is, can be good for some jobs. No-no, it was presented as instead of..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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