Is the new M6 too expensive?

[madNbad]

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20 minutes ago, Huss said:

Projecting from the negative directly onto the paper.  Not worrying about resolution.  Or files.  And watching the image appear in the developing tray is awesome.  Making a contact sheet, then circling the ones you will print, is awesome.

Water is too expensive here for simply washing paper prints, I'll stick with scanning. 

[madNbad]

Back on subject, there are ninety year old Leica II cameras being used on a regular basis. Almost seventy year old M3's and a whole bunch of thirty to forty year old M6's. If you look at how long Leica M cameras can be kept in service, no the new M6 is not too expensive.

[analog-digital]

Am 25.10.2022 um 20:56 schrieb Danner:

No.  The price (in the US) is right in line with the other analog M cameras (i.e. MP and M-A).

Do you pay cash if you would buy one?

[jsrockit]

On 10/26/2022 at 2:51 AM, analog-digital said:

Yessss, way to exoensive.

What's new about the new M6? No innovation of an already obsolete system

Any innovations Leica has tried to make have never worked.  They are completely right in keeping the M the same and they will sell them despite if we think they are too expensive.  

[BradS]

is it too expensive?

No, I don't think so. It is priced below both the MP and the M-A. It costs about the same (adjusting for inflation) as the original M6 and likely other M bodies when they came out. At $5300 or so, it is close to one month's gross income for someone earning $60,000 per year...sure, it is a lot of money but if one gets a few decades of use from it, it seems like a reasonably good value.

...and as the OP points out, when compared to what people spend on even a middle-of-the road digital camera & lens these days and considering that the digital gear will likely not last even a decade, a new Leica film camera can be a very good value indeed!

Edited October 27, 2022 by BradS

[Huss]

So many people willingly drop $1500 for a new phone every couple of years. No-one 'needs' a $1500 phone.   A Leica M is cheap compared to that, as they obviously last a lot longer than that phone!

[jakontil]

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23 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

Re storage...In my current "film experiment" I discovered today that scanned files from the Plustek 8100 are pretty darned big!!!  I scanned a negative at max (7200) and it produced a 10204 x 6736   223MB tiff file!  😱  Scanning at 3600 it was down to a measly 5102 x 3368  56MB file!   I redid it in max w/jpeg and it was only 14MB.  TBH, on the computer I couldn't see any difference in any of them!  🤔

I think plustek maximized at 3600 or 4200, more than that just interpolated, another scanner called prime image or something

[madNbad]

The new Sony A7RV will be hitting the shelves soon and priced at $3900 usd. Many people will pay the price either because they want the 60 MP sensor or the improved video quality. I have a A7II which was originally released in 2014. Sony has not released a firmware update for the camera since 2016 and that was a fairly minor one at best. Mostly, once a camera is sold, Sony pretty much abandons it. Leica has taken care of many cameras long after the sale, are they perfect? No but what large company is. As mentioned throughout the long thread about the new camera from Leica, it was pointed out there have been many changes to the film bodies since the introduction of the M3. The move to steel gears, alloy top plates, loading and rewind plus who knows how many changes to internal parts. The price of the new M6 is not much more than the new Sony. Which will hold its value?

[Archiver]

15 hours ago, BradS said:

is it too expensive?

No, I don't think so. It is priced below both the MP and the M-A. It costs about the same (adjusting for inflation) as the original M6 and likely other M bodies when they came out. At $5300 or so, it is close to one month's gross income for someone earning $60,000 per year...sure, it is a lot of money but if one gets a few decades of use from it, it seems like a reasonably good value.

...and as the OP points out, when compared to what people spend on even a middle-of-the road digital camera & lens these days and considering that the digital gear will likely not last even a decade, a new Leica film camera can be a very good value indeed!

Considering that many Canon and Nikon DSLR's from the 2000s are still alive and kicking, it is not 'likely' that digital gear won't last a decade. My Canon 30D from 2007 and 5D Mark II from 2009 are still very much alive, as is my M9 from early 2010. I still use them all for personal and paid projects. Nikon D700s regularly turn up at my local secondhand dealer, even in the last few months.

The new M6 is too expensive for me - I have a silver M7 for when I want to scratch the film M itch - but more power to those for whom the price is okay.

I paid AUD $3100 in 2010 for my mint condition M7 in box with papers, which is about $4130 indexed for inflation today. M7s are selling for $4k - $6k depending on amount of wear, so it would almost be like owning it for free if I sold it now. Couldn't say that about my M9, although it would sell for about a third of what I paid for it 12 years ago, which is way better than any other digital camera.

 

[jsrockit]

17 hours ago, madNbad said:

The new Sony A7RV will be hitting the shelves soon and priced at $3900 usd. Many people will pay the price either because they want the 60 MP sensor or the improved video quality.  Which will hold its value?

Yeah, it is true.  I see people saying they will update from the IV to the V.  I see such small differences and cannot fathom spending that money on something without a Leica name or a medium format digital for example.  A Sony? never.   That said, obviously with digital people sell the old one and do not need to pay for film and processing.  No matter what, photography is expensive if you want the best of the best cameras.  

Edited October 28, 2022 by jsrockit

[jsrockit]

3 hours ago, Archiver said:

Considering that many Canon and Nikon DSLR's from the 2000s are still alive and kicking, it is not 'likely' that digital gear won't last a decade. My Canon 30D from 2007 and 5D Mark II from 2009 are still very much alive, as is my M9 from early 2010. I still use them all for personal and paid projects. Nikon D700s regularly turn up at my local secondhand dealer, even in the last few months.

 

I think his point is that most people upgrade before 10 years, not that they will die before then.  

[TheBestSLIsALeicaflex]

On 10/25/2022 at 3:01 PM, pippy said:

Adjusting for inflation the M6 on introduction in 1984 cost a whisker under $5k. All in all I can't see how the new version could be considered to be ridiculously overpriced.

OTOH the relative prices of the top-of-the-range Nikons and Canons 'Then-and-Now'?...

Philip.

At least in the 80/90's Leica products typically sold for 5-10% off MSRP, and often carried a nice rebate from the manufacture.  Purchased my first new M6 in '98 for $1999 US, and that was with a $2000 rebate.  Leica now has more pricing power, and their products are a bit more expensive than they have been historically.   But, as mechanical. film gear, that camera should last a very long time, useable even if the meter goes out.  I'm still using 4 Leica M2's, each about 60 years old.  Pretty amazing when you think about it.  

Edited October 30, 2022 by TheBestSLIsALeicaflex

[Anbaric]

Is the price too expensive for Leica's market? No, they'll sell as many as they can make, and probably struggle to keep up with demand. Is it too expensive compared to other Leicas? No, it's in the same price range for the same high quality of construction. Will it hold its value better than most other cameras, especially high-end digitals? Almost certainly, and you'll be able to use it for the rest of your life unless something disastrous happens or they stop making film. If I were Leica, would I charge less? No, to survive and thrive the company has staked out a position in the market targeting affluent customers with plenty of disposable income, or enough passion for the equipment to justify to themselves the ever-increasing prices. And Leicas genuinely aren't cheap to make, because part of the mystique that allows them to charge as much as they do is about building things in an expensively traditional way.

But...

Is it too expensive for the vast majority of photographers? Sadly, yes. And where I live, a lot less affordable in real terms than it used to be. In 2002, I could have bought a new M6-TTL bundled with a 35mm Summicron ASPH for £2199. Today, the new M6 and the latest iteration of this lens come to £7,375, a price that has more than tripled over a period when average UK wages have risen by only 60%. If I were to replace the M6 and set of four lenses that are sitting in my bag with their current equivalents, I'd have to spend more than £18,000 if I bought them new. If I bought the versions I have now secondhand, I'd still have to pay more than £7000 (the price of the M6 alone has about tripled since I bought mine in the 2000s, and more than doubled in the last five years or so).

I doubt anyone on an average income who is interested in starting out in film photography and wants to build a modest system with a metered camera and a reasonable selection of lenses would even consider Leica M, when they could put together a classic SLR system with first class optics for less than the price of a secondhand Summicron. An old Nikon FM does essentially what the new M6 does with a different focusing system, but at 2% of the price. It's a shame that only Leica has survived in the high quality film camera market - it's as if the only new watches you could buy were from Rolex, and if you wanted something affordable you had to find a secondhand Seiko on ebay. I suspect if Cosina ever again becomes interested in film cameras, they could sell a high quality rangefinder for about 1/4 of the price of the M6, and they might have an easier time of it now that the secondhand Leicas they used to compete with have become so much more expensive. They already have remarkably good lenses that go for about 15% of Leica prices.

[ktmrider2]

I don't think the M6 is too expensive as it is a bit cheaper than the MP.  I remember when the MP was introduced and if memory serves, there was a 20-30% price increase over the M6.  Leica made the argument that the MP removed ALL of the poor areas of the engineering in the M6 like the viewfinder, brass top plate vs zinc etc, stronger film rewind knob etc.  If we accept the marketing from Leica that the MP is a mechanical improvement over the original M6, than the new M6 is a smoking deal since the new M6 removes the weaknesses of the original.

I won't be buying one but may pick up a MP.  Presently I have a mint 50th anniversary M4 in black chrome and am very happy with it as the viewfinder is almost as good as the M2 but it has a modern film loading system.  Since the M4 is black chrome, I would go with the MP simply because of the black paint finish.  The MA is black chrome but shares the paired frame lines of cameras after the M4-P and it is the paired frame lines which may prevent me from buying an MP.  IMHO, a black paint MP with single frame lines for 35/50/90 would be almost perfect.

Edited October 30, 2022 by ktmrider2

[grahamc]

I think it depends on one's situation and what camera selections they already have .  

For me, I have an M6 variant with a brass top (the TTL titanium), which was far cheaper than the new M6 even though it was purchased only a year or so ago after M6 prices took off.  I really like it so even acknowledging that the innards are of different quality in the new M6 (like my MP), at AUD8,300 the price doesn't appeal to me one bit for the M6-issue.  Also Leica here have had 2 price hikes in very short succession in the last year.

Meaning that only a year ago new MP was around AUD7000 I think.  This makes the M6 reissue seem even more pricey.  

'Maybe' if I didn't have a brass topped though .

Alternatively, If I was a non-forum member and hadn't picked up info here about brass tops and many other detailed things 'leica', I think the price of the new one would look even more expensive at AUD3500 versus AUD8300 for the 'same' product. 

Overall and FWIW I think the price point would have made more sense at 15% lower than MP and try to eat up much more of the second hand M6 market. 

No doubt a beautiful camera though and I'm purposely avoiding seeing/holding one in case it changes my mind !     
 

Edited October 31, 2022 by grahamc

[Huss]

On 10/30/2022 at 5:27 AM, TheBestSLIsALeicaflex said:

At least in the 80/90's Leica products typically sold for 5-10% off MSRP, and often carried a nice rebate from the manufacture.  Purchased my first new M6 in '98 for $1999 US, and that was with a $2000 rebate.  Leica now has more pricing power, and their products are a bit more expensive than they have been historically.   But, as mechanical. film gear, that camera should last a very long time, useable even if the meter goes out.  I'm still using 4 Leica M2's, each about 60 years old.  Pretty amazing when you think about it.  

I do remember seeing ads for the M6 on sale from Leica in the past.  That was because back then they had competition in the marketplace from the Japanese film cameras.  You could buy a Nikon F3 new, which even though it was an SLR, was a high end option.

But now, there is no competition for Leica.  No-one else makes high end 35mm film cameras so they control that market. 

[Herr Barnack]

On 10/25/2022 at 2:12 PM, Huss said:

The new M6 in the USA is $5300.  Outrageous!  Ridiculous! Stop the insanity!

And yet no-one mentions any of that when they buy a new Nikon Z9, or Sony A1, or Canon R3

Those are $5500, $6500 and $6000...

So rejoice at the affordability of Leica!  And be thankful that they are still making film cameras.

Hear, hear. 

For those who are mad about the price, shut the fork up and go get yourself a FujSonNikCan. 

Long live the resurrected M6.  Huzzah!! 😊

Edited October 31, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[Huss]

2 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Hear, hear. 

For those who are mad about the price, shut the fork up and go get yourself a FujSonNikCan. 

Long live the resurrected M6.  Huzzah!! 😊

Huzzah should be used more often!  Huzzah!

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, Huss said:

Huzzah should be used more often!  Huzzah!

What, you don't prefer Hussah?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Huss]

58 minutes ago, logan2z said:

What, you don't prefer Hussah?

I don't like to make it all about me, all the time.  Some of the time, but not all the time.