My second M8, M8 ver.2 and M8 repairs...

[bayerische]

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Easier for accounting reasons? That can explain it. I cannot see anything else.

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Maybe.

 

I would buy it

 

Cheers!

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[ArtZ]

Right, Dominic; the only question about is regarding WARRANTY : the dealer told "he was waiting for another warranty" and this can be normal for 24 hours (or even 2 or 3 days...) from the acquisition, but... do they would give a full 2 year warranty for a camera that has been sold, say 2 or 3 months before the trip to Solms ? If so, there would be a sort of acquaintance by Leica to the fact that the dealer tries to sell it as "new"...

 

Luigi, The Leica Shop Paris is is not just a dealer, it's the Paris "window" (vitrine) of Leica products. The shop has been designed by Leica and looks like any other Leica Shop in the world. Besides, I think it's the only Leica Shop in France. THey wouldn't try to sell it as "new" unless Leica asks them.

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[ArtZ]

Ahhh... for tracking serial numbers, my second (well third ) M8 SN is 3196xxx and it comes with firmware 1.107. The camera arrived from Solms early September.

 

I've notice the vynil vulcanite is slightly (but noticable) glossier than the vulcanite in my other body. Even texture feels a bit different (roughly).

 

LCD display seems also to be bit different (nicer on the new body).

 

Does anyone who has two bodies (one very new and and older one) noticed this? Or is it just my imagination?

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[bayerische]

My one was bought 13.8.07. FW 1.102 serial 3197XXX.

[ArtZ]

My one was bought 13.8.07. FW 1.102 serial 3197XXX.

 

Black, I suppose. The black bodies were all 3197xxx and the chrome bodies 3196xxx. Is the color coded on the SN???

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[bayerische]

Yes, black.

[barjohn]

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In the U.S. once the camera has been sold, when it is sent back to the factory and returned to a dealer it must be sold as a refurbished unit and not as a new one. There have been numerous class action suits on this and most U.S. manufacturers are fully aware. hence you can go into Fry's or Micro-Center and find highly discounted factory refurbished units or to the manufacturers web site such as HP, Xerox, Epson (when they were selling refurbished RD-1s, etc.). It is a serious ethical and legal error to do otherwise and I would hope Leica is doing the proper thing. If it were otherwise, HP and others would just send them back out as new. Usually, a manufacturer sells the refurbs on its own site where the discounted value still ensures them of a very good profit. In some cases they may sell the refurbs in bulk to a large retailer to quickly turn the inventory into $$$.

[ho_co]

Manuel, you said above that the shop was "just waiting for the warranty card."

 

In the US, if the warranty card has been filled out and registered, the camera belongs to that person. If the dealer has decided to replace the camera for him (very infrequent in my experience), the camera will go back to Leica for repair and be returned to the dealer. Leica has no knowledge that the dealer has replaced the camera, nor have they any interest. If I filled in the warranty card, it's my camera; the dealer isn't going to get another card, and isn't going to get a certificate saying it's refurbished, and isn't going to get a rebate for exchanging the camera for you.

 

This has nothing to do with "new" or "used." It simply says that Leica's records show that you registered that body as your camera. In my view, and speaking from my own experience, you created the problem by filling in and mailing the warranty card because that put the dealer in the middle.

 

This thread interests me for another reason: I often read on the forum, "take it back for a replacement." As I say, that doesn't happen often in the US, but it's a frequent advice for the EU, so I say okay. But then what did you think happened with these cameras? Leica isn't going to say, "oh, another defective camera; let's just sell it as refurbished." To me, the two viewpoints seem contradictory.

 

And Manuel, you say "Leica wouldn't let that happen to La maison du Leica, because it's a Leica Shop."

 

??

 

It's a retailer who has agreed to stock the product and keep knowledgeable personnel and treat customers in the Leica fashion.

 

When Leica repair gets a camera back, they fix it and return it to whoever sent it to them. They don't ask sales who bought it. The woman who repaired your camera has probably never heard of La maison du Leica and wouldn't care if she had.

 

Now on the other hand, Leica might "lose" the original registration and ship the dealer a replacement registration card. But isn't that illegal? Maybe not if it's stamped "Duplicate--original card lost."

 

You said early on that we purchasers of cameras might be getting used cameras without knowing it, and that is correct. But that is simply because the dealer represented it as new. It has nothing to do with Leica's policy, but with the dealer's policy. It's true with cars, appliances, electric shavers, jewelry--it's true with any retail business.

 

And that gets us back to the topic here: Is it new or isn't it? If it has been out for 24 hours, is it new? If the camera is already registered to another owner, is it new?

 

Maybe I sat at the dealer's counter and filled out the warranty card while he was checking the camera--and he discovered that it wasn't working, so I took a different camera. But the warranty card is filled out. The dealer's only recourse is to "lose" the warranty card and then call Leica and request a replacement, which they may or may not send.

 

This whole thing comes down to trust: You trust the dealer when he says it's new; Leica trusts the dealer when he says he lost the card.

 

You and I can solve the contradiction by following this suggestion as consumers:

 

Don't fill out the card when you first buy the camera. Save it for a week or two. Then if there's a problem with the camera, you return the card with the camera. You get a new camera, the dealer can return the camera for repair as new stock, the second customer gets the full new warranty.

 

That way everyone is happy and no one needs to apologize. It makes things smoother for the dealer and for the customer, and I would argue that it satisfies the law and common practice. It may not solve the ethics of the matter, but we seem to disagree anyway on what's "new" and "used."

 

--HC

[jaapv]

On top of that- in Europe you don't have to fill out the warranty card - the sales receipt suffices, so normally hardly anybody bothers. But with the M8 an online registration is needed for the free filters and that complicates matters.

[ArtZ]

Howard,

 

Let me remind you the facts and you'll understand that Leica Shop cannot be not involved at all.

 

I informed Leica France and Leica Camera AG (mail and phone calls) on Monday (June 11, 2007) before I informed the Leica Shop because it was closed on Mondays.

 

On Tuesday, when I went to the Leica Shop they were already informed by Solms that my camera had to be replaced by a new one. Leica Camera checked with Leica Shop if they had one chrome body in stock to replace mine, otherwise Leica Camera will send me directly a new camera. A new camera was already waiting for me at the Leica Shop when I arrived.

 

When I spoke with Leica Camera AG on Monday, they said they could send me a camera the same day (Monday) by FedEx and I could give my camera on Tuesday to the Leica Shop. I said that I could wait till Tuesday to see if the Leica Shop had another body because it would be quicker and easier. Leica Camera AG agreed.

 

I was informed by Leica Camera AG they should replace the faulty camera for a new one to the Leica Shop. They told me so by email and by phone (I still have those emails).

 

I was in a hurry because at the end of the week (on Friday) I was going to Russia and I needed the camera. Leica Camera AG, Leica France and the Leica Shop were very helpful.

 

As Jaap point out, Leica Camera would find it out with the free filters.

 

When I bought the camera on Saturday, I ordered the two free filters. After replacing cameras (and because I'm an honest person), I called Leica Camera AG to informed them I had a new camera (gave them the new serial number) and asled them if they could rectify their records for my previous free filters order. The send me a new email confirming that they had registered my new serial number on my filter order.

 

I really cannot see how the Leica Shop could be involved in trying to sell a repaired camera for a new one.

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[ho_co]

On top of that- in Europe you don't have to fill out the warranty card - the sales receipt suffices, so normally hardly anybody bothers. But with the M8 an online registration is needed for the free filters and that complicates matters.

Same in the US as for warranty. No need to fill it out. But Leica keeps a list of bought items (or used to do so at least). So if I buy a given lens and register it with them, and then report it stolen, if it comes in for repair under a different name, Leica will hold the item and contact me about how to handle the situation.

 

Andere Länder, andere Sitten.

 

And judging from the inanity from some on the still active 1.108 thread, no matter what the course of action, some would complain.

 

--HC

[ArtZ]

 

1.- It is illegal to sell a good which has been already sold, used and repaired “as new”. It doesn’t matter if it was just for a minute.

 

Here you go again with wild assertions. All Leica cameras are used as part of the testing process. Leica only sells second-hand stuff according to you.

 

2.- A Company which sells goods which don’t fulfill with the specifications advertised can be suited for fraud and false publicity.

 

Which assertions have not been fulfilled? The camera makes some of the best photos of any camera. Sure there are problems, and Leica is working on them.

 

My solicitor will prepare a letter for Leica asking explanations. Depending on Leica’s answers I will decide what to do. In France “class actions” doesn’t exist.

 

Good god, you are the worst kind of human being. Full of false self-importance, and driving up the prices of products through irresponsible actions. Truly disgusting.

 

I have no problem with criticising Leica products, unlike another one of your false assertions claims. They are not perfect, and there is definitely room for improvement. However, quasi-deliberately misunderstanding a perfectly clear memo from Leica, and then puffing yourself up with hot air and calling your lawyer, how revolting is that. Humanity has so far to go it is not even funny.

 

Don't bother responding to this. I won't read another post from you.

 

Carsten,

 

It's pathetic to see when some people here, you included, lack of arguments, the personal attack and insults are their only way to keep the discussion alive. Never mind.

 

Concerning your points and quotes:

 

1.- It's not me who says that, it's my sollicitor. I think he knows the French and European Laws better than you.

 

2.- A M8 is advertised as SDHC capable, M-mount lenses can be used with the camera, 16 bit images... Those are just somme exemples.

 

3.- I state again that he will prepare a formal letter to ask Leica answers and after getting these answers, I will take a decision. As I said, Leica can change specifications and thet's not a reason for taking a legal action, but given false information to make you buy a product, it's a crime. Once more, this is not me who is saying that but my legal advisor.

 

For your knowlege, if I finally take Leica to the Court, don't worry, it will me cost nothing. Maybe you don't know the meaning of friendship but my sollicitor is, above all, a friend and he never charged a single cent. And he's a very well known business lawyer in France.

 

I just want that Leica start communicating and informing custumers on regular basis with real information. The email we have all received can be read in many ways, especially when it arrives before an important price rise and when the M8 suffers of many technical problems which have not been solved in a year now it's in the market.

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[Guest tummydoc]

In the countries I have lived (regrettably, not France, it's such a lovely country) generally when one has retained legal counsel, his first advice to his client is to refrain from making any public utterances related to the matter unless directed to do so by the attorney. Perhaps you would be best served to obtain your sollicitor/friend's prior approval of what you intend posting to the forum before doing so. That might improve your odds at winning a case if it comes to that, as well as provide some relief on this forum from the tedium of this farcical debate.

[hankg]

 

I just want that Leica start communicating and informing custumers on regular basis with real information. The email we have all received can be read in many ways, especially when it arrives before an important price rise and when the M8 suffers of many technical problems which have not been solved in a year now it's in the market.

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This reminds me of the obsessive lawyer in the US who drove a dry cleaner out of business over a pair of pants he claims they lost. Nothing they could do would satisfy him.

 

There is no communication from Leica that would not spawn another round of conspiracy theories and accusations of malfeasance. This is beyond marketing, it's in to the arena of psychiatry. Leica should carry on and ignore this nonsense. I'm sure there will be many electronic widgets which will require new sourcing and consequent changes in firmware and everyone will bring a new accusation of underhanded dealing and lack of communication. There is not much that Leica can do about it other then to be reasonable and responsible and if that is not sufficient well so be it. It's beyond their control. I can see why they don't participate directly in internet forums.

[ArtZ]

In the countries I have lived (regrettably, not France, it's such a lovely country) generally when one has retained legal counsel, his first advice to his client is to refrain from making any public utterances related to the matter unless directed to do so by the attorney. Perhaps you would be best served to obtain your sollicitor/friend's prior approval of what you intend posting to the forum before doing so. That might improve your odds at winning a case if it comes to that, as well as provide some relief on this forum from the tedium of this farcical debate.

 

Vinay, my intention is not taking Leica to the Court. I would appreciate from Leica other kind of communication in the future. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Leica is not telling the truth or telling the truth partially...

 

On the other hand, if Leica keep behaving like the ostrich I think I will go further on.

 

I have spent in the last 3 months more than 30K € in Leica cameras, lenses, etc. There're 26 boxes (gray and black with red dots) in a corner of my living room at the moment... The content of some boxes is at Solms, my first M8 died 24 hours after purchase, Leica gives you contradictory information, etc, etc. Well, I think it's normal to ask some explanations.

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[lct]

The point has nothing to do with warranty guys, at least in French law. It is to know whether an used or refurbished item may be sold or replaced as new. The answer is no.

[Guest tummydoc]

There is no communication from Leica that would not spawn another round of conspiracy theories and accusations of malfeasance. This is beyond marketing, it's in to the arena of psychiatry. Leica should carry on and ignore this nonsense. I'm sure there will be many electronic widgets which will require new sourcing and consequent changes in firmware and everyone will bring a new accusation of underhanded dealing and lack of communication. There is not much that Leica can do about it other then to be reasonable and responsible and if that is not sufficient well so be it. It's beyond their control. I can see why they don't participate directly in internet forums.

 

You are correct and I agree with you on a philosophical level, but I'm sure you are aware that the concept "image is everything" pertains exquisitely to a high-priced line such as Leica. Leica needs to clarify some points, and should do so through an official spokesperson. Not for the cheerleaders who believe everything they say, nor the conspiracy theorists who dis-believe anything they say, but for the untold number of potential customers who might mistake an absence of rebuttal for an admission of culpability. Leica needs to consider that there may be a lot of people out there who lack the sensibility and rationality that you have, who nonetheless have $5500 to spend on a camera

[delander †]

Yes! I forgot about this. Under EU law the manufacturer/seller has the right to be given a chance to repair a faulty product. For instance, if you buy a cellphone and it last's for an hour and breaks down, then it's up to the dealer to refund you/give you a new one, or simply as protected by law, he can send it in for service, and you'll be your money spent down, without a new phone, or any phone for that matter.

 

 

I think the law in the UK (within the EU) is different. If the item stops working shortly after purchase you can return it to the shop and you can then choose between your money refunded/a new replacement/a repair. Your contract is with the shop and the manufacturer is not involved. Shops try to convince you to get a repair or a replacement but if you hold out for your money they have to repay it.

 

If you have damaged it then of course that is different.

 

Jeff

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[ArtZ]

Vinay,

 

As I said many times (I repeat it once more) I like my M8. I'm not selling them.

 

In this forum most of the threads are about how wonderful is my M8. Well, I know that. But the M8 has also many problems and Leica seems to be deaf... but is it Leica's fault or is it our fault?

 

My point is when you tried to share your problems (and opinions) with others here, if they're not good for Leica, you become a troll, you get insulted and what you said it's (quasi-)deliberately misunderstood and changed from the original meaning.

 

It's never Leica fault. It's like if Leica was just the perfect company and all their products are just perfect. We know all this is not true... (we only need to read the subjects on the threads to see that many people is having serious problems with Leica)

 

Instead of doing something, everyone sits and waits until Leica comes with a magic remedy. Then, I think we're also responsible. Well, we must be more pro-active and ask Leica some explanations.

 

I don't need to ask Guy Mancuso, Mark Norton and others to pledge for me at Leica. I can write them, phone them and complain directly. I have just shared with you these exchanges with Leica.

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[ArtZ]

I think the law in the UK (within the EU) is different. If the item stops working shortly after purchase you can return it to the shop and you can then choose between your money refunded/a new replacement/a repair. Your contract is with the shop and the manufacturer is not involved. Shops try to convince you to get a repair or a replacement but if you hold out for your money they have to repay it.

 

If you have damaged it then of course that is different.

 

Jeff

 

Jeff, Leica Camera AG replaced my camera. As the Leica Shop is closed on Mondays, I called Leica directly and I arranged everything with them by email and phone. When Leica Camera AG took that decision to replace the camera, the dealer didn't know it until next day.

 

Leica proposed me this options for the camera replacement:

 

1.- Send it back directly to Solms (I have to pay FedEx or whatever)

 

2.- Return the camera to the shop and they will send it for free to Leica.

 

3.- Leica will send ia new camera at my home address.

 

4.- Leica will check with the dealer if he had another camera in stock.

 

I chosed options 2 and 4 (most convenient options for me).

 

What it's not normal it's to find this camera again on the market as a new camera. That camera have been used and repaired. Leica should sell this camera as a refurbished camera, not as new.

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