New M11 and 90mm f2 Summicron focusing issue ?

[Sharphoto]

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Considering a new Leica M11 and 90mm f2 Summicron purchase but I've been reading about M11 and 90mm f2 Summicron focusing issues from poor calibration etc. So what are the odds I buy a $14,500 rig and it wont focus properly.. lol ? I currently have a Hasselblad 503cx with 80mm lens and want to go digital full frame.

[jdlaing]

Where are you reading about this issue?

[Sharphoto]

google

[SrMi]

55 minutes ago, Sharphoto said:

google

Google can only help you find potentially useful sources, but it will also return you lots of results with wrong information. You need to share which source are you referring to.

[Jeff S]

Have you used the M system before?  Some bond with it; some not. M lenses and bodies need to be properly calibrated for RF focusing, and one’s eyes need to be properly corrected and up to the task. This is universally true, although a longer lens, wide open, might require a bit more attention.  Some address this by using the EVF or rear screen focus, which will show what the sensor ‘sees.’  I’ve not had RF focus issues with my M system, going back to the 80’s, including at one point using the 75 APO Summicron, which some find problematic.  But samples vary, and the fix is generally easy (assuming good vision).  Mostly though, I stick to 28/35/50mm focal lengths for RF focusing, relying on the SL system for other needs.  

You can rent or demo the gear if you want more assurance, but again there could be sample variation.  Regardless, stick with reputable Leica dealers with warranty and return policy.

Jeff

 

[Photoworks]

they maybe 1-2 people complaining out there. but that is probably not the equipments issue.

M11 works fine with 90mm lens.

The summicron 90 is a nice lens, it is challenging to focus sometime on the fast.

I replaced the app-summicron-M 90 with the Summarit-M 90 mm 2.4. This lens is easier for me to focus because the turn is shorter and faster. other benefit if the size and weight.
It is not longer made, and available only used. But it is excellent lens at 2.4 and above.

[Sharphoto]

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Thank you , guess I should rent first. 

[harmen]

I also recommend reading this post by Jono Slack: 

He says: “90mm APO Summicron

This feels like it was designed principally for portraits, it focuses accurately using the rangefinder up to about 4 or 5 metres, even at f2. Stopping down does keep the original focus point in focus, but the in-focus area extends beyond that point, close to the camera remains out of focus.

By 30 metres I found it was back-focusing by 2 or 3 metres. So that when I focused on a car number plate 30 metres away using the rangefinder, and then checked in the EVF, the point of accurate focus was 2 or 3 metres closer.”

This helped me understand the same behaviour of my 90 APO.

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by harmen

[Sharphoto]

Wow..ok

[Jared]

5 hours ago, Sharphoto said:

Considering a new Leica M11 and 90mm f2 Summicron purchase but I've been reading about M11 and 90mm f2 Summicron focusing issues from poor calibration etc. So what are the odds I buy a $14,500 rig and it wont focus properly.. lol ? I currently have a Hasselblad 503cx with 80mm lens and want to go digital full frame.

Normally, the 90mm would not be the first lens bought with an M11. That's not because it is a poor performer, but because it is relatively specialized. Most people choose the 90mm APO Summicron-M when they specifically want to do portraiture. It can work for landscapes as well, but there are better choices in the M lineup for that purpose (such as the 90mm macro Elmar and the 90mm Elmarit). So, I assume you want to do primarily portraiture? 

The M system is well suited to environmental portraiture--from 28mm to 50mm. It is more challenging at longer focal lengths. Stop any 85mm - 105mm down to f/2 and use it inside 2m and the depth of field is incredibly narrow. That means you need to nail focus. That is possible to do with a rangefinder, but it requires some practice and a relatively slow process (compared to modern AF systems). There's just no margin for error. Heck, even your body's natural swaying motion to stay standing can be enough to shift focus by increments large enough to matter. If this is the main type of photography you want to do, rent an M with a 90mm and try it out. Make sure it suits you. Then, if it does, by all means move forward. By the way, using a Visoflex can raise your "hit" rate quite a bit, but it still won't allow you to work at the speed you could with a modern AF system, especially one with eye detect AF. 

As to whether a newly purchased 90mm and M11 would be well calibrated? I would expect them to be. Leica tightened up their tolerances considerably some time around the introduction of the M9 or maybe even a bit earlier, so it is unlikely that your rangefinder and your lens will be mismatched. That being said, Jono's post regarding rangefinder accuracy at distance is likely spot on. If you expect to use the lens for landscapes or tight city scapes, I would recommend one of the other recent 90mm models instead. They are smaller, lighter, and a better choice as long as you don't need tight control over depth of field.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Jared

[tangosix]

I am a rookie humbled by this group, but I'll chime in.  I recently used the M11 with the 90f2 for a two day restaurant project.  I did use it with the EVF often, but also used it fast and furious RF during kitchen prep and bartenders working.  

I preferred the 75 over the 90 that day and will probably purchase it next for my tighter shots.   However, other gents at the meeting love that 90. 

My impression was that the 90 required more light, faster shutter, had a razor thin dof indoors and required a stable hand.  The nature of the lens requires a skilled driver. 

I'd listen to photoworks ... his work is amazing. 

An example of the day:  No edits out of camera and almost wide open. 

 

 

 

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[darylgo]

The first thing I do with a lens (new or used) is test it with my calibrated camera.  If you are buying from a Leica dealer both camera body and lens have them pull the items and test it before purchase, if they are not calibrated test each with the dealers demo models, it will take some time and effort but it is well worth it when you get the full resolution from your lens.  Alternatively, you can send the pair to Leica for calibration, expect to wait a few months for their return.  

[Sharphoto]

Idk but it is ridiculous that the customer should have to test any leica $$ parts period before purchase..  Wetzler factory won't do basic quality control ?   Scratching my head. The compact medium format Hasselblad X1Dii with the outstanding 80mm XCD f1.9   is starting to make more sense with photos as good or better

Edited August 24, 2022 by Sharphoto

[jdlaing]

Go with the Hasselblad. 

[insomnia]

Am 23.8.2022 um 02:50 schrieb Sharphoto:

Thank you , guess I should rent first. 

Definitely do that. Digital rangefinder and fast, long lenses screams for a bad surprise, even if all is aligned well (which it normally is). If you're a pro I wouldn't even consider this combo as an option.

[Sharphoto]

Not a pro but not paying $14.5 to do quality control. A lot of pros go with SonyA7RIV and FE 85mm f1.4 for $5300

[insomnia]

It's not just about quality control. It's extremely difficult to accurately focus a fast tele lens with the rangefinder.

[idusidusi]

On 8/23/2022 at 1:29 AM, Photoworks said:

they maybe 1-2 people complaining out there. but that is probably not the equipments issue.

M11 works fine with 90mm lens.

The summicron 90 is a nice lens, it is challenging to focus sometime on the fast.

I replaced the app-summicron-M 90 with the Summarit-M 90 mm 2.4. This lens is easier for me to focus because the turn is shorter and faster. other benefit if the size and weight.
It is not longer made, and available only used. But it is excellent lens at 2.4 and above.

I went with the Macro-Elmar F4, no problems at all with the M11, a wonderful combination, for my 90mm needs. I also have the 135mm Apo-Telyt no issues with these lenses and rangefinder focussing.

Like has been said above it depends on lenses and rangefinder being calibrated fine and also one's eyes, better to try a camera out first in a shop with your intended lens, focussing at different distances. That is what I did.

[Sharphoto]

Bought a sd card and gona try the M11 with 75mm Summicron f2.. which I like better.. I really like the compact Leica platform.

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[idusidusi]

19 minutes ago, insomnia said:

It's not just about quality control. It's extremely difficult to accurately focus a fast tele lens with the rangefinder.

I have given up with that, so no lens faster than my 35mm F2, all the others I have are slower, 3.4x2 /3.5, and 4. Usually no problem focussing even in pretty low light, the only time when I sometimes refer to the LCD screen.

Edited August 24, 2022 by idusidusi