Wobbly M Elmarit 28mm f2.8 problem

[jhluxton]

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I have three Leica M lenses of the three the Elmarit f2.8 28mm is my favourite and gets a lot of use. 

Just downloaded my latest crop of images and when checking them I have found that a number were out of focus, or partially out of focus.

Now I have been using an M for 6 years and I have not had any focusing problems.

At first I thought my eyes were playing up but checking images taken from a couple of weeks ago those are fine. 

Further examination reveals the whole front of the lens is wobbly! - I thought it was the hood but it isn't its the whole front there is a couple of millimeters movement on the lens front.

Now I have not dropped or banged the camera and can't think how it has come loose.

I keep the camera in a protector inside a neoprene case, only thing I can think of is stuffing it in and out of my Billingham bag might have put pressure on the lens hood which has levered the front of the lens, The other possibility was that it might have been a consequence of the very hot weather we had in the UK the other week. On the hottest day I had been asked to do a photo survey of my old school for the old pupils association and I was aware of the camera and lens getting quite hot.  

Now the question - how to get it fixed?

Is it a return to Leica problem or is there an easier fix?

If it does have to go back how much is the repair likely to cost? 

In the meantime I had better get the 35mm Summicron out of storage - but that doesn't offer the wider view. 

Thanks for any ideas.

John

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by jhluxton

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[adan]

Which 28mm Elmarit?

There have been five quite different optical/mechanical designs since 1965, and some of those also had sub-variations in the mechanical construction of the barrel (not the glass) during their production lives.

The exact model and age will have an effect on availability of parts, if needed (or if they still exist at all), and on the details of what is coming loose.

row 1, versions I, II, and III

row 2, version IV (two images)

row 3, version V (ASPH), first sub-variant (two images)

But as a (very) rough estimate, I sent in a version III last year to Leica USA to have 6-bit coding installed, and that plus some other repairs Leica found necessary (including re-aligning the front of the barrel) was about $550 (or ~£450).

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Edited August 2, 2022 by adan

[jhluxton]

Thanks

I think it is the current model serial 4163966, bought about 2018. It is 6 bit encoded.

John 

[lct]

3 minutes ago, jhluxton said:

I think it is the current model serial 4163966

Or a 28/2.8 asph v1 (11606) i suspect. Is it this one?

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[jhluxton]

Yes that is the one.

[lct]

Try to screw gently the wobbling part clockwise and stop if you feel a resistance.

[adan]

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Thanks also.

A version V (ASPH); a.k.a "Elmarit-M ASPH". From the S/N, actually built approximately 2012 and thus sub-variant 1 (as lct says). Plastic clip-on lens hood?

In any case, parts shouldn't be a problem.

Does the looseness include any rotational movement? It is possible that the front has simply unscrewed from the rest of the lens, part way, and that is also producing the wobble. In which case you may be able to screw it back in yourself. An easy fix (although perhaps not to Leica-guaranteed specs).

Grabbing the rectangular lens hood to unmount the lens can cause the front to unscrew - in some models. Too much torque - It breaks loose the Loc-Tite gluing the threads in place.

In fact it was such a rotational alignment that Leica had to do for my v.III last year (in addition to the 6-bit coding).

[Capuccino-Muffin]

That particular lens (elmarit-asph V1) is notorious to become wobbly.

Same for the 28mm Summicron-asph V1.

[jhluxton]

3 minutes ago, lct said:

Try to screw gently the wobbling part clockwise and stop if you feel a resistance.

Thanks I have tried but it wont screw just wobbles.

The whole element assembly is wobbling within the focusing barrel.

 

 

[lct]

2 minutes ago, jhluxton said:

Thanks I have tried but it wont screw just wobbles.

The whole element assembly is wobbling within the focusing barrel.

I have no idea then sorry but other colleagues here will have some hopefully.

[jhluxton]

3 minutes ago, adan said:

Thanks also.

A version V (ASPH); a.k.a "Elmarit-M ASPH". From the S/N, actually built approximately 2012 and thus sub-variant 1 (as lct says). Plastic clip-on lens hood?

In any case, parts shouldn't be a problem.

Does the looseness include any rotational movement? It is possible that the front has simply unscrewed from the rest of the lens, part way, and that is also producing the wobble. In which case you may be able to screw it back in yourself. An easy fix (although perhaps not to Leica-guaranteed specs).

Grabbing the rectangular lens hood to unmount the lens can cause the front to unscrew - in some models. Too much torque - It breaks loose the Loc-Tite gluing the threads in place.

In fact it was such a rotational alignment that Leica had to do for my v.III last year (in addition to the 6-bit coding).

No, there is no rotational movement just up and down. 

I seldom remove the lens and it hasn't been off since I took it to Leicastore Manchester in April for a sensor clean. However, depending on which camera bag I use it can be a tight fit and though the camera is in a neoprene case in my camera bag the bag can get well loaded. and it could be that when inserting or removing the camera pressure was put on the hood. 

I am quite amazed that a lens in this price band is held together by Loc-Tite glue! 

 

 

[a.noctilux]

John,

if you are brave enough, you can DIY

taking inspiration (making a tool too) from this video even if it's Summicron-M 28mm:

 

[jhluxton]

13 minutes ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

That particular lens (elmarit-asph V1) is notorious to become wobbly.

Same for the 28mm Summicron-asph V1.

I wish I had known this when I bought it.

It was a toss up between the F5.6 Summaron or the Elmarit. I liked the ultra compact size of the Summaron but often need to take interior low light images and went for the Elmarit. 

[jhluxton]

if you are brave enough, you can DIY

taking inspiration (making a tool too) from this video even if it's Summicron-M 28mm:

Not not really - I am ham fisted as it is when I come to DIY - can't even hang wallpaper without getting in a mess! 😀

 

[adan]

2 hours ago, jhluxton said:

I am quite amazed that a lens in this price band is held together by Loc-Tite glue! 

Well, it's held together by concentric metal threads - as seen in the disassembly video above. Tubes and rings that screw into/onto other tubes.

The Loctite (or if it sounds better, cyanomethacrylate cement) is there to prevent the threads unscrewing under the "normal" torques expected in usage. Yet under "repair shop torque," break free for quick and easy disassembly.

All part of making the lenses as compact and lightweight as possible (the 28 Elmarit-M ASPH (180 grams) being an extreme example) - which is one of the reasons people pay the high prices for them.

Usually it works (when used - not all M lenses are made identically) - but nothing is perfect.

Would it horrify you to know that some of the glass in your lens is also cemented into doublet groups? See elements 3-4 and 6-7 in the cutaway view in post #2.

Different cement. Once upon a time, Canada Balsam (sticky fir tree sap), but these days, a man-made substitute. Cemented lens doublets date back at least to 1840 (Charles Chevalier - Paris). https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2010/10/from-petzvals-sum-to-abbes-number/

And yes, it can fail also, eventually. Leica still calls it "balsam-fraktur" in their repair diagnosis reports. I got such a diagnosis with a previous (approx 1982) 28mm Elmarit-M v.III I sent in for 6-bit coding (Leica wouldn't touch it - "unrepairable").

Similarly, the prisms in all M viewfinders, that bring the views from the two RF windows together so you can focus by aligning them, are cemented together. And also fail with age or shock, blacking out the finder.

Edited August 3, 2022 by adan

[jhluxton]

38 minutes ago, adan said:

Well, it's held together by concentric metal threads - as seen in the disassembly video above. Tubes and rings that screw into/onto other tubes.

The Loctite (or if it sounds better, cyanomethacrylate cement) is there to prevent the threads unscrewing under the "normal" torques expected in usage. Yet under "repair shop torque," break free for quick and easy disassembly.

All part of making the lenses as compact and lightweight as possible (the 28 Elmarit-M ASPH (180 grams) being an extreme example) - which is one of the reasons people pay the high prices for them.

Usually it works (when used - not all M lenses are made identically) - but nothing is perfect.

Would it horrify you to know that some of the glass in your lens is also cemented into doublet groups? See elements 3-4 and 6-7 in the cutaway view in post #2.

Different cement. Once upon a time, Canada Balsam (sticky fir tree sap), but these days, a man-made substitute. Cemented lens doublets date back at least to 1840 (Charles Chevalier - Paris). https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2010/10/from-petzvals-sum-to-abbes-number/

And yes, it can fail also, eventually. Leica still calls it "balsam-fraktur" in their repair diagnosis reports. I got such a diagnosis with a previous (approx 1982) 28mm Elmarit-M v.III I sent in for 6-bit coding (Leica wouldn't touch it - "unrepairable").

Similarly, the prisms in all M viewfinders, that bring the views from the two RF windows together so you can focus by aligning them, are cemented together. And also fail with age or shock, blacking out the finder.

Thanks for the info. I was aware that quite a few lenses across various makes have cement holding lens elements together but wasn't aware cement / glue might be used to hold the complete lens assembly to the shell. 

In the 80s and 90s I had a few Contax cameras with Zeiss lenses and never had problems of them becoming lose and wobbly. I later went digital with the early Leica offerings. 

After hankering after an M system for years I found myself in a situation where I could afford to take the plunge invest in three lenses two bodies plus flash etc and thought I might have a quality system that would last me through a good bit of my retirement. With perhaps the odd body upgrade every 5 to 10 years or so. 

Now from the issues you have described concerning the range finder I am beginning to wonder what next might happen if some more glue gives up the ghost. 

Perhaps I should sell the lot and stick to my Vlux5! 

Seriously though I have found a local long established camera repairer that repairs analog Leica cameras. Presumably a lens repair might be possible for them  or would the 6 but coding cause issues? 

I will phone them in the morning and see if they can do anything. Might be cheaper and quicker.

Wouldn't normally be quite so parsimonious but having recently have to do a sudden upgrade to my pc due to my previous power machine giving up the ghost, expand my digital storage and with holiday trips coming up funds are a bit stretched at the moment. The thought of possibly paying over £500 to fix my wobbly lens doesn't exactly fill me with joy. 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by jhluxton

[adan]

1 hour ago, jhluxton said:

Seriously though I have found a local long established camera repairer that repairs analog Leica cameras. Presumably a lens repair might be possible for them  or would the 6 but coding cause issues? 

I will phone them in the morning and see if they can do anything. Might be cheaper and quicker.

6-bit coding is just paint in little pits on the lens flange. Should not interfere in any way with fixing the looseness elsewhere, if it is anything like the service done in that 3-minute video above.

Oh, and the cameras with the failed viewfinder cement are usually pushing 60 years old (M3s, maybe M2s/M4s) - and/or dropped onto cement or similar. I was just making the point that cement is not some outlandish camera/lens-assembly material.

Edited August 3, 2022 by adan

[madNbad]

Sorry if it's been mentioned but the most common cause of wobbly Elmarit's are caused by grasping the lens hood to mount and unmount the lens from the body. It's easier to grasp than the body of the lens but puts more torque on the front element group causing it to become loose. It was most common with the V1 ASPH and its clip on hood. The new threaded design still puts additional stress on the front group if the users is grasping the hood instead of the lens. I've owned two VI 28 2.8 ASPH's. The first one wobbled all over and the service person gave me the hint. My latest came from someone who was careful, it's wobble free.

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[hmzimelka]

On my wobbly Elmarit 28mm ASPH V1 the retaining holding in the optical block, found at the rear of the lens,  was a little loose. 

I removed, cleaned, and added a weak locktite to the thread and tightened it again. Problem solved. Took under 5 minutes. 

I used a regular lens spanner but put on some protective plastic film not to mar the surface.

The optical block has a guide screw that aligns into a cut out in the focusing block. This cut out is not a tight fit, and if the retaining ring isn't tight enough, the optical cell can rotate back and forth a tiny amount. Many lenses share a similar design. CV 35/2.5 Color Skopar PII, CV 21/3.5, CV 35/2 Utron ASPH II, CV 50/1.5 Nokton ASPH II, Zeiss Planar 50/2, etc

Edited August 3, 2022 by hmzimelka

[jhluxton]

4 hours ago, adan said:

6-bit coding is just paint in little pits on the lens flange. Should not interfere in any way with fixing the looseness elsewhere, if it is anything like the service done in that 3-minute video above.

Oh, and the cameras with the failed viewfinder cement are usually pushing 60 years old (M3s, maybe M2s/M4s) - and/or dropped onto cement or similar. I was just making the point that cement is not some outlandish camera/lens-assembly material.

Thanks for update on the coding and viewfinder cement. As I am heading for 63 myself I don't think I will still be around when my camera bodies reach 60!!!