Help me choose the right M (M6/M6TTL/M7/MP)

[atournas]

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You will not find any noticeable differences in photos taken with any film Leica M body. Pay attention to the lenses you are going to attach to the M's, instead.

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6 hours ago, krylovsk said:

Indeed a handheld meter is always a greater confidence. If I’m shooting posed portraits I come to the subject and take a couple of measurements with incident meter. Since it’s slow anyway, I might as well use a MF camera for this.

What I’m after here is documentary style photography where subjects move and light conditions change accordingly fast. Keeping up with the focus alone is already a challenge since you often shoot with a wide aperture (indoors).

Konica Hexar RF, $730.

[a.noctilux]

For me Hexar RF is a far "featured M" than any Leica M that I use.

Think of including auto wind/rewind, auto-load film, usable 1/4,000, easy access +/- 2EV 1/3 increment, fast "bracketting", AEL, S/C/S-T around the shutter release.

Kind of miracle with about same size as my M6/M-A 😉.

I agree that reliability can be a problem, but as I wrote, never had any trouble with mine (used to have two).

 

As side note, bigger RF brother, I use also two Xpan (I and II) 24x36 and 24x65 at each "frame" without loosing film ... which Leica M must "become", another story though.

Edited July 7, 2022 by a.noctilux

[krylovsk]

1 hour ago, atournas said:

You will not find any noticeable differences in photos taken with any film Leica M body. Pay attention to the lenses you are going to attach to the M's, instead.

That’s pretty obvious, but the camera choice defines the likelihood you’ll have it with you to take the picture in the first place and whether the combination of your skills and the camera’s capabilities are sufficient to capture the moment.

One camera won’t make better pictures than the other, neither will it make me a better photographer. I just want to find a camera that best fits my needs and helps me most in capturing the moments I want.

[krylovsk]

13 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

For me Hexar RF is a far "featured M" than any Leica M that I use.

Think of including auto wind/rewind, auto-load film, usable 1/4,000, easy access +/- 2EV 1/3 increment, fast "bracketting", AEL, S/C/S-T around the shutter release.

Kind of miracle with about same size as my M6/M-A 😉.

I agree that reliability can be a problem, but as I wrote, never had any trouble with mine (used to have two).

 

As side note, bigger RF brother, I use also two Xpan (I and II) 24x36 and 24x65 at each "frame" without loosing film ... which Leica M must "become", another story though.

Those are good points and I might consider adding Hexar RF or Minolta CLE, especially if I end up with my “main” camera without AE.

I am a little skeptical that it would be too many bells and whistles for me to really like it. M7 is probably as much as I am willing to go in terms of features for this style of camera, except shutter speed but I get the reasons why it’s limited.

I don’t mind getting a camera with more advanced features like motorized wind for certain scenarios, but that’s not what I’m looking for here. I just shoot digital for that sort of thing.

[Fotoklaus]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb krylovsk:

I’ve been shooting with CL for about two years now and want to add a dependable body to shoot more film.

After reading a lot of wisdom on this forum and elsewhere, I still feel undecided so I thought I’d ask for help.

I have a Canon P and I found the lack of built-in meter to be too limiting for regular use, so I’m currently looking at M6 classic, M6 TTL, M7, and maybe MP. Ignoring the budget for a moment, my agony of choice is down to the following issues:

Shutter dial: I feel like the classic dial with the shutter speed decreasing when rotated clockwise is more natural to me. It’s how it goes on my other film cameras and how I mentally imagine changing it with my index finger, but I never used an M camera. I read that people are struggling with that because the shutter dial is small, recessed, and has high resistance.

Is it a deal breaker? Has someone switched to TTL/M7 because of this issue?

Auto-exposure: I shoot in aperture priority with pretty much all of my cameras, but I only shoot B&W film and with CL I adapted to meter only when the light conditions are changing. Unfortunately indoors I find that I have to adjust exposure very often and indoor family photography is where I want to shoot more with the new camera.

Any tips from M6/MP and meter-less users? I don’t mind the challenge and learning, but I don’t know where to get started to get better at guessing exposure.

Weight: I find weight to be an important factor for me to pick up the camera (e.g. Canon P mostly stays at home). The difference on paper is pretty small, but some say M6 TTL and M7 are noticeably heavier. 

As you probably figured, I incline towards M6 classic - mostly due to the shutter dial direction, smaller weight, and a bit more future-proofness. It doesn’t look like Leica will release another AE film camera, so I better learn working in manual mode. It’s also 30% cheaper than the M7, which I can put aside for the 35 summicron.

Any advice from someone who had to make a similar choice? 

When you are talking about future proofness think of the lack of service due to parts out of stock. So therefore I would prefer a MP over an M6 classic and the M7.

Hexar RF and the CLE are nice cameras but old, electronic devices. I would not spend too much for such a camera.

Then I would rather go for a late Bessa R2A/ R3A. Proven, solid plattform (shutter and electronics are built a million times in a lot of SLR- Cameras, too).

Edited July 7, 2022 by Fotoklaus

[Ornello]

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8 hours ago, krylovsk said:

Apologies to the M5 lovers for dismissing it, I just didn’t want to blow up the initial post. 

I did consider M5, but I feel like its aesthetics are not for me and that factor turns out to be surprisingly important. I already have CL and I intend to keep it as a second camera. It’s not winning a beauty contest for me, but for the price I can swallow that.

With M5 we talk about pretty much the same price range as M6, but a similar to CL “features” being an older camera with mercury batteries and a dead-end in the evolution. I would rather follow the mainstream path that Leica decided to go with their film cameras, even if I might not agree with their decisions.

Since we talk about odd balls, I also considered Zeiss Ikon ZM. It’s the ideal camera on paper, but it’s aesthetics are unimpressive for me to try it in person.

The M3 and M4 and M6 are too small for my tastes. The M5 is just about perfect. The battery is no issue. Any Leica repair agency can adjust the camera to accept 1.5V alkaline cells. 

[atournas]

1 hour ago, krylovsk said:

That’s pretty obvious, but the camera choice defines the likelihood you’ll have it with you to take the picture in the first place and whether the combination of your skills and the camera’s capabilities are sufficient to capture the moment.

One camera won’t make better pictures than the other, neither will it make me a better photographer. I just want to find a camera that best fits my needs and helps me most in capturing the moments I want.

OK, I'll bite. I had an M6 Classic for nearly 25 years and I've owned an MP since the very first days it came out. Sometime between, I bought a brand new M7. In less than a month I returned it to the shop. Why? Because, after all the previous years with the M6, I couldn't stand the thought that suddenly the battery and/or the circuit might die.

I now believe that the film Leica M has been overstated as "a camera for anything," for it isn't. Yet, it is exactly that limitation, in effect the M being a tool for street photography, that makes it excel.

In my opinion, best advice among those above: Save some extra money and buy an MP.

Edited July 7, 2022 by atournas

[a.noctilux]

53 minutes ago, atournas said:

In my opinion, best advice among those above: Save some extra money and buy an MP.

Good advice.

Or better yet M-A 😁.

I had more than once MP, and now none but two M-A (maybe my very last Leica film M for days to come).

With them I need only films and processing chemicals.

So long ago, I needed this Exposure Mat which was liberating with any camera.

 

[krylovsk]

Thanks everyone for the comments, I really appreciate your advice and the experiences you shared so far.

I was traveling today to a city with Leica shop, so I came by to see what I can get my hands on. They got mildly annoyed with me asking to try different cameras and excused themselves that they’ll have to unpack a brand new MP for me just to look at and I didn’t insist, but I did have a chance to try M6 classic and M7.

I gotta say I was surprised how noticeable the 2mm and 50g difference felt - I certainly didn’t expect that. In fact both cameras felt heavier (denser?) than I expected and M7 did look slightly oversized to me when put next to the M6.
The shutter dial of the M6 was okay and I could rotate it with index finger with the camera at my eyes. It was not as convenient as the larger dial in M7, but the resistance was not an issue. Could it be just that particular unit that saw a lot of use?

It’s likely confirmation bias, but after holding both cameras my preference certainly went to M6. If it weren’t a special edition with an annoying tattoo on the top plate and the associated price premium, I might have left the shop with it.

On a side note, I found LEDs in both cameras to be too big and too contrasty for my taste distracting from the RF patch and framelines. 

[a.noctilux]

13 minutes ago, krylovsk said:

On a side note, I found LEDs in both cameras to be too big and too contrasty for my taste distracting from the RF patch and framelines

Nothing can replace real life "feeling".

You may point the individual "feeling" about red LED in VF.

Now you know 😇.

 

I used M6/MP for many years, laughing when my wife still did not want these red LED in vf, she happily uses her M5 (better than me).

After removing the batteries from MP, I understood, since then I reuse "happily" the M5 when I need meter for slides.

For b&w, I use meterless M for so long now that I even don't use handheld meter anymore.

[a.noctilux]

Spot metering of M5 is very efficient.

 

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[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, krylovsk said:

I was traveling today to a city with Leica shop, so I came by to see what I can get my hands on. They got mildly annoyed with me asking to try different cameras and excused themselves that they’ll have to unpack a brand new MP for me just to look at and I didn’t insist, but I did have a chance to try M6 classic and M7.

The one choice I would suggest would be to buy from a different shop.

[earleygallery]

15 hours ago, krylovsk said:

I want the meter to be a safety net and learn not to use it for every second frame, because it will be slowing me down. Or at least dialing in the exposure in the right ballpark before I bring the camera to my eyes.

In that case you can buy a meterless M and use a handheld meter, and take incident light readings. If the light and source is fairly consistent then you really don't need to keep metering, especially if you shoot C41 or traditional B&W film (slide is more precise).

 

[andrew01]

5 hours ago, krylovsk said:

On a side note, I found LEDs in both cameras to be too big and too contrasty for my taste distracting from the RF patch and framelines. 

The LEDs do seem bright when using the camera inside, but if you are outside in more typical shooting conditions they are perfect. 

[budjames]

I worked 17 years for a commercial photographic processing equipment manufacturer based in Willow Grove, PA, USA. Our equipment was installed all over the world and I travel extensively as a field engineer and then sales manager. The photo processing chemicals, especially for color film and paper processing, where very nasty, carcinogenic and terrible for the environment. 

When I switched to digital (Olympus C-2020Z was my first digital camera), I not only saved money on film and processing but felt better about the environmental impact. In 2012, I bought my first digital SLR. Since 2017, I shoot only Leica M and SL2. 

I know about the allure and nostalgia of film processing. I used to process my own B&W film and printed B&W and Cibachrome prints. I don't miss it since computer photo processing is more capably and more fun. 

That said, I'm not sure why someone would spend a small fortune to buy a Leica M film body these days. To each their own, but you might want to consider a digital M for the convenience and image quality.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography.

[atournas]

7 hours ago, budjames said:

[...] The photo processing chemicals [...] very nasty, carcinogenic and terrible for the environment. I know about the allure and nostalgia of film processing. [...]

The previous post raises a serious question regarding green environment concern. I think it's time we start a sincere, facts-based discussion about non-photographic issues when we choose to shoot analog.

I shoot film a lot and when I ask myself why I still do so, my excuses have not much to do with photographs themselves; they have to do with the joy of using all-manual cameras and with---I admit it---the feeling of being "different". And film Leica M is best suited for such feelings!

But, perhaps it's just me. 

[Fotoklaus]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb budjames:

I worked 17 years for a commercial photographic processing equipment manufacturer based in Willow Grove, PA, USA. Our equipment was installed all over the world and I travel extensively as a field engineer and then sales manager. The photo processing chemicals, especially for color film and paper processing, where very nasty, carcinogenic and terrible for the environment. 

When I switched to digital (Olympus C-2020Z was my first digital camera), I not only saved money on film and processing but felt better about the environmental impact. In 2012, I bought my first digital SLR. Since 2017, I shoot only Leica M and SL2. 

I know about the allure and nostalgia of film processing. I used to process my own B&W film and printed B&W and Cibachrome prints. I don't miss it since computer photo processing is more capably and more fun. 

That said, I'm not sure why someone would spend a small fortune to buy a Leica M film body these days. To each their own, but you might want to consider a digital M for the convenience and image quality.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography.

Hm, not really an argument. What effort takes it to produce millions of electronic devices, hardly used for more than a few years. The energy it takes to

save the pictures, the devices produced therefore and so on.

How are the nice products on your homepage produced? Coffeemugs, Puzzles, Phonecases...? Shipped from China to the U.S., then printed with ink from... China

on printers from China...

Back then no one would ever suggest to print coffemugs with pictures.

And to be honest: I would not spend a fortune on an digital M- Body. No really advantage over a lot of other digital cameras but a lot of disadvantages.

 

But not everything is decided objectively...  🙂

[krylovsk]

7 hours ago, budjames said:

I know about the allure and nostalgia of film processing. I used to process my own B&W film and printed B&W and Cibachrome prints. I don't miss it since computer photo processing is more capably and more fun. 

That said, I'm not sure why someone would spend a small fortune to buy a Leica M film body these days. To each their own, but you might want to consider a digital M for the convenience and image quality.

Appreciate your opinion, thanks for sharing. 
I spend 8 to 10 hours a day working in front of a computer and digital photo processing is the last thing I want to do in my free time. I guess if I worked in a lab it would be different.
I don’t shoot color film, because when I tried I ended up with post processing even more than with digital files. As you, I find color to be easier and much more practical with digital. 

Now I could probably try a monochrome Leica for B&W, but I was not impressed with what I saw online besides M9 (dead end) and the end results are just a part of the equation. I really enjoy the mindfulness of film photography and spending time in the darkroom, so I want this to take a large share of my photography alongside digital. I will likely still shoot more digital than film, but I want to do more of it or at least make that process more enjoyable.

The environmental impact is something that I have thought a lot about, but I only shoot B&W in small quantifies and use environment-friendly chemistry whenever possible. I imagine most households produce more chemical waste than I do in my tiny darkroom and movie industry wastes more film on a single set than I do in a year.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Mute-on]

16 hours ago, krylovsk said:

Thanks everyone for the comments, I really appreciate your advice and the experiences you shared so far.

I was traveling today to a city with Leica shop, so I came by to see what I can get my hands on. They got mildly annoyed with me asking to try different cameras and excused themselves that they’ll have to unpack a brand new MP for me just to look at and I didn’t insist, but I did have a chance to try M6 classic and M7.

I gotta say I was surprised how noticeable the 2mm and 50g difference felt - I certainly didn’t expect that. In fact both cameras felt heavier (denser?) than I expected and M7 did look slightly oversized to me when put next to the M6.
The shutter dial of the M6 was okay and I could rotate it with index finger with the camera at my eyes. It was not as convenient as the larger dial in M7, but the resistance was not an issue. Could it be just that particular unit that saw a lot of use?

It’s likely confirmation bias, but after holding both cameras my preference certainly went to M6. If it weren’t a special edition with an annoying tattoo on the top plate and the associated price premium, I might have left the shop with it.

On a side note, I found LEDs in both cameras to be too big and too contrasty for my taste distracting from the RF patch and framelines. 

It sounds to me as though you really prefer the more classic M size and shape.  Furthermore, if you find the LEDs distracting, and can live without a built-in meter, I suspect your ideal camera could be an M4. Quick load, rapid rewind, same controls as M6, no LEDs and no electronics to fail. 

If you are only shooting black and white, with its wide exposure latitude, metering for every shot is simply not necessary. Get a nice small handheld (e.g., Sekonic 308) and let rip. You will probably find the absence of metering in camera to be curiously liberating. Compose and shoot, having already made the metering/exposure adjustments beforehand.  

Best of luck in your quest!