Totally feeling sad and heart broken. Bye Leica...

[wanderingkiwi]

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I've never owned a Leica camera, but I've seriously been considering getting one. Either a Q2 or an SL2. 

This thread has halted me in my tracks.

 

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[frame-it]

52 minutes ago, wanderingkiwi said:

This thread has halted me in my tracks.

and perhaps you haven't even seen the other quirks/bugs/AF/etc threads yet...but yeah its a small % of people who had serious problems

Edited June 23, 2022 by frame-it

[wanderingkiwi]

7 minutes ago, frame-it said:

and perhaps you haven't even seen the other quirks/bugs/AF/etc threads yet...but yeah its a small % of people who had serious problems

I'll still probably end up with a Leica. I can't seem to warm to the Japanese brands (all of which have their own share of unique issues). I've currently got a Canon DSLR, and I like the idea of replacing all of that clutter with a sleek, minimalistic machine. 

[LocalHero1953]

8 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Leica needs a worldwide program for working photographers. Now they have the flash thing sorted it’s the last major impediment in the system. And not like Canon’s CPS where you just buy into it, even if you’re a dentist. A real one where real, full time, working photographers can get expedited repairs.

 

As an amateur myself, and given that Leica's primary market is amateurs, I cannot see the logic for allowing only professionals to have access to what should be normal good service. The priority should be the other way round.

Why should dentists (and, ahem, retired geologists) be barred from having decent service, paid for or not?

Edited June 23, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[becker]

Because pros live of using tools that work and fast service that works too and  amateurs prefer talking about cameras and gears. Amateurs even often don't know what they should shop and ask the LUF then ;-). A friend of mine is a professor, telling the upcoming foto reporters " how it works "  , they don't talk gear much.  And of course there are pro shops real shops yes and they know their  customers.  But only to have one screwdriver is risky, although it has a gold tip. 

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, becker said:

Because pros live of using tools that work and fast service that works too and  amateurs prefer talking about cameras and gears. Amateurs even often don't know what they should shop and ask the LUF then 😉. A friend of mine is a professor, telling the upcoming foto reporters " how it works "  , they don't talk gear much.  And of course there are pro shops real shops yes and they know their  customers.  But only to have one screwdriver is risky, although it has a gold tip. 

Hmm - I think I've come across this sort of attitude before. Do you want me to trot out all the offensive tropes about professionals? 
Sorry, can't be bothered with it.

Edited June 23, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[Ouroboros]

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I've earnt my living from weddings, portraits, events and commercial work for years and I've never used a digital Leica for any of it.  Leica abandoned the professional market years ago when they introduced a succession of flawed digital cameras with no professional support to speak of. 

After an overnight and total conversion to full digital workflow in 1999 for my work, apart from a couple of brief flirtations with early generation Imacon and Leaf digital backs on Hasselblad V series I've stuck with Nikon throughout, from Nikon-based Kodak and Fujifilm, Nikon D1 and successive upgrades with each new Nikon release to D5.  Nikon cameras have never let me down despite being hammered at 100's of weddings, events and graduations. I've never needed  to call on NPS, but it has always been there as a safety net. No doubt professional Canon users are equally well supported, too.

Leica apparently don't want to be in the professional game, I assume it's a market that's not primarily important to them.

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Ouroboros

[hamey]

I have been with Leica since 1973 with my first Leica the Leicaflex SL , I just took it out of my glass cabinet, and yes it still works, simply a remarkable Camera.

Along the last few years I have had a few Leicas, only the R4. and the R9 gave me trouble, the R7, R8 and the M7 have been superb.

As for Nikon, I own the F3, F100 and two F6's however on one of my F6 the mirror has locked up, tried everything but still no show, should I repair it, don't know.

I have now stopped shooting slide film, so is it worth repairing my Nikon F6, that's my dilemma.

My Fuji Cameras and Lenses  have never let me down except for the crappy lens hoods which need constant attention.

Good Luck with your dilemma.

[becker]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb LocalHero1953:

Hmm - I think I've come across this sort of attitude before. Do you want me to trot out all the offensive tropes about professionals? 
Sorry, can't be bothered with it.

Sorry shouldn't comment here, my English ist too limited to get the sense of yours comment.... 

[caissa]

6 hours ago, wanderingkiwi said:

I've never owned a Leica camera, but I've seriously been considering getting one. Either a Q2 or an SL2. 

This thread has halted me in my tracks.

 

Why should you worry ?

As a non-professional I had never the slightest problems with M (M246) or with SL and SL2 digital cameras. And also never problems with any lenses. I never needed a single repair.

So the problems seem to be mainly for professionals who cannot afford to buy spare bodies, and for whatever reason never thought about buying Panasonic cameras for fallback (They are really inexpensive for this.)

And now that the Godox flash system is available the main obstacle for wedding photographers is gone (before using a Panasonic camera was also an obvious way to avoid this flash problem).

 

I agree it is a sad story, but for me no reason to avoid Leica. (It is simply part of the fun for me, so avoiding it is the start of the end for me.)

Living in Europe (CH) means that Leica is much closer than any Japanese company for me, and the reaction from japanese giants is usually a bit long in the tooth. And I simply do not enjoy their products very much.

PS. I actually use Leica gear since the 80s (R and M) and never had any problems (apart from a stuck R 28mm lens). But this is probably too old and another story.

Edited June 23, 2022 by caissa

[caissa]

On 6/21/2022 at 7:12 PM, Darthaddie said:

TLDR; Leica cameras are not meant to be used professionally. They just can't keep up in product quality and customer service. 

I am a full time wedding photographer for the past 8 years. Have been shooting Leica since 2012 (Got my first M-240) and it was love at first sight. I invested in premium glass and gradually built up a nice small kit for personal photography. In late 2019 I moved from my Sony/Canon kits to the SL2 and later the SL2S with the Summicron SL 35/7/50 combo for my professional work. I was in love with the kit. Genuinely nothing else would come close. 

Then recently the entire Leica system started falling apart. I thought cameras break and can be fixed. right? Well, with Leica, they can be fixed but Leica does not care about when. 

First the SL2 started giving System Errors. It won't turn on to the main menu. The shutter was stuck. After much back and forth I sent in for repairs. After more than 3 weeks, I hear it might take more than 3-4 weeks further even though its been repaired in the USA. It could be even later as they are moving. So might be another 2 months. This is unacceptable. As a professional, I cannot have a spare $7k camera at all times. And no, they do not have spares or loaners. 

Then the SL2S started acting up. SD card error with every brand. Camera freezes on continuous shoot. Extreme shutter lag. Needed repairs again. Same long patient wait for repairs and absolutely no update from them. I did update the latest firmwares to try found a solution. 

I do take care of my cameras like a baby. Even after years of use they are in mint condition. Never dropped or nicked them. The issues are just mechanical and quality control failures. 

Well, I thought I will wait and rent 2 Sony's while I wait since both my cameras are out of commission. 

I rented a Sony and a SL2S but now the SL75 has started acting up a bit. 

Furthermore, I have been a manual shooter most of my carrier and bells and whistles don't matter. Having shot more than 300 weddings solely on manual focus lenses, I don't care much about fancy options on my camera. The leaner the better. That's why I loved my Leica. 

Not any more. Sold my lenses yesterday and will sell my cameras in a bit (when I get them back). Since the prime Wedding season is here, I had to buy an entire new Sony kit which costed thousands I had not planned. Fortunately the Sony A1 has a great color profile, so I do not miss my Leica that much. 

But I am sad to let me beloved kit go. 

I sincerely did not expect such an expensive investment to be so worthless. After all, Leica was known for customer support and quality. I will stick with their manual glass on my Sony. But sadly their SL camera bodies are just overpriced crap. Can't say that about the M line as I haven't used them professionally. 

Well, rant over. Just wanted to share my experience.

 

I am non-professional, so I cannot really give you an advice (and should not).

But what is really obvious to me is that you made not full use of the possibilities of the L-system. One of the obvious weaknesses is that flash support was bad with Leica cameras (now solved with godox). So I took the obvious solution and added a S1R to the SL2 for better flash features. And I continue in this way, one or more Panasonic cameras for fall-back (S5, S1R), Panasonic lenses for fallback or obviously Sigma lenses for fallback and things missing (like 1.2/35, 1.4/85, 1.8/135).

All this makes up a full system and is probably still a lot cheaper than a full switch to A1 and new lenses.

So I simply do not understand your strategy and find it actually a bit unlucky/not well thought out (especially for professional use).

[Photoworks]

7 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Why should dentists (and, ahem, retired geologists) be barred from having decent service, paid for or not?

Dentists holding Leica camera for selfies can drag the other M camera they don't use and for does people it probably never breaks since they don't use it much.

[Photoworks]

4 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

After an overnight and total conversion to full digital workflow in 1999 for my work, apart from a couple of brief flirtations with early generation Imacon and Leaf digital backs on Hasselblad V series I've stuck with Nikon throughout, from Nikon-based Kodak and Fujifilm, Nikon D1 and successive upgrades with each new Nikon release to D5.  Nikon cameras have never let me down despite being hammered at 100's of weddings, events and graduations. I've never needed  to call on NPS, but it has always been there as a safety net. No doubt professional Canon users are equally well supported, too.

back in the days of the D1 the NPS service in the Usa was as bad as Leica is now.

I had 3 D1 bodies, one or 2 always in repair, and they took 2-3 months minimum.

The D1 for the time was amazing, but always something that needed fixing.

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, Photoworks said:

Dentists holding Leica camera for selfies can drag the other M camera they don't use and for does people it probably never breaks since they don't use it much.

Should I repeat my previous email on offensive tropes about professionals?
Same answer - can't be bothered. 

[Photoworks]

2 hours ago, caissa said:

But what is really obvious to me is that you made not full use of the possibilities of the L-system. One of the obvious weaknesses is that flash support was bad with Leica cameras (now solved with godox). So I took the obvious solution and added a S1R to the SL2 for better flash features. And I continue in this way, one or more Panasonic cameras for fall-back (S5, S1R), Panasonic lenses for fallback or obviously Sigma lenses for fallback and things missing (like 1.2/35, 1.4/85, 1.8/135).

I have been using 2 SL2 for professional use daily, probably 1000-5000 every day for the last 2.5 years.

They didn't let me down mechanically, but I would do the same if I need to send them in for service. A couple of S5 for a professional are not a big deal, plus for video they have a good microphone connection that the SL2 designers forgot all about it.

[frame-it]

10 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

Dentists holding Leica camera for selfies can drag the other M camera they don't use and for does people it probably never breaks since they don't use it much.

you don't like Dentists?

[Ouroboros]

12 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

back in the days of the D1 the NPS service in the Usa was as bad as Leica is now.

I had 3 D1 bodies, one or 2 always in repair, and they took 2-3 months minimum.

The D1 for the time was amazing, but always something that needed fixing.

My experience with the D1 (x2) was the opposite of yours but none of this is relevant to the op.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Ouroboros

[Ko.Fe.]

On 6/21/2022 at 1:12 PM, Darthaddie said:

TLDR; Leica cameras are not meant to be used professionally. They just can't keep up in product quality and customer service. 

I am a full time wedding photographer for the past 8 years. Have been shooting Leica since 2012 (Got my first M-240) and it was love at first sight. I invested in premium glass and gradually built up a nice small kit for personal photography. In late 2019 I moved from my Sony/Canon kits to the SL2 and later the SL2S with the Summicron SL 35/7/50 combo for my professional work. I was in love with the kit. Genuinely nothing else would come close. 

Then recently the entire Leica system started falling apart. I thought cameras break and can be fixed. right? Well, with Leica, they can be fixed but Leica does not care about when. 

First the SL2 started giving System Errors. It won't turn on to the main menu. The shutter was stuck. After much back and forth I sent in for repairs. After more than 3 weeks, I hear it might take more than 3-4 weeks further even though its been repaired in the USA. It could be even later as they are moving. So might be another 2 months. This is unacceptable. As a professional, I cannot have a spare $7k camera at all times. And no, they do not have spares or loaners. 

Then the SL2S started acting up. SD card error with every brand. Camera freezes on continuous shoot. Extreme shutter lag. Needed repairs again. Same long patient wait for repairs and absolutely no update from them. I did update the latest firmwares to try found a solution. 

I do take care of my cameras like a baby. Even after years of use they are in mint condition. Never dropped or nicked them. The issues are just mechanical and quality control failures. 

Well, I thought I will wait and rent 2 Sony's while I wait since both my cameras are out of commission. 

I rented a Sony and a SL2S but now the SL75 has started acting up a bit. 

Furthermore, I have been a manual shooter most of my carrier and bells and whistles don't matter. Having shot more than 300 weddings solely on manual focus lenses, I don't care much about fancy options on my camera. The leaner the better. That's why I loved my Leica. 

Not any more. Sold my lenses yesterday and will sell my cameras in a bit (when I get them back). Since the prime Wedding season is here, I had to buy an entire new Sony kit which costed thousands I had not planned. Fortunately the Sony A1 has a great color profile, so I do not miss my Leica that much. 

But I am sad to let me beloved kit go. 

I sincerely did not expect such an expensive investment to be so worthless. After all, Leica was known for customer support and quality. I will stick with their manual glass on my Sony. But sadly their SL camera bodies are just overpriced crap. Can't say that about the M line as I haven't used them professionally. 

Well, rant over. Just wanted to share my experience.

 

 

To be honest I don't see real reasons to buy any EVF Leica, rather than it still feels like nothing else on the market. Joy to use (while it works).

But in terms of selling photos and videos to costumers, its sharper lenses and better UWA handling, plus no WB shifts, no odd skin rendering (Sony) is not much relevant to the most of costumers demand. One of the professional photog for weddings and else (managed two studios for some time with freelance photogs) made a statement what SL1 is enough for weddings. He was taking about Canon SL line.  

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[Photoworks]

29 minutes ago, frame-it said:

you don't like Dentists?

I like them as much as everyone else.

Do only reason we talk about dentists is that in the 80-90's the only people interested in Leica where people that can afford it. I was a running joke.

[Ko.Fe.]

8 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

As an amateur myself, and given that Leica's primary market is amateurs, I cannot see the logic for allowing only professionals to have access to what should be normal good service. The priority should be the other way round.

Why should dentists (and, ahem, retired geologists) be barred from having decent service, paid for or not?

+1, 

With Canon as regular customer since nineties at this moment, here is website where I put request in, get case number, shipping label and ship (within couple of days because repair center is within Canada, not at another continent). I'm getting almost next day reply after receiving with estimate, I could approve or decline, on-line. If approved, repair starts and progress report is available on-line.  Once it is done (day or two) it is shipped back for free. 
What LCAG has?