L-system - Why poor sales?

[Simone_DF]

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1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

No, I hadn’t forgotten that.  But I don’t agree that, if Panasonic discontinues its L collaboration, it doesn’t automatically mean that Leica discontinues its relationship with Panasonic on making the SL cameras.  That was happening before the L mount alliance, and I’d be surprised if Leica didn’t have that tied up in some way.

Then again, I’m often surprised …

The first SL was 8000€ right? That's the price you can expect should Panasonic stop collaborating with Leica. 

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[LocalHero1953]

5 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

The first SL was 8000€ right? That's the price you can expect should Panasonic stop collaborating with Leica. 

The Leica SL was sold at launch for £5050 - I can't find the euro price but probably towards 6000 euros.
The SL2 was sold at launch for roughly the same amount - 5990 euros.
The SL2 is now on sale for £5720.
I don't think you can draw such a conclusion from those figures.

[BernardC]

24 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

B&H: "Special order" (which means they are getting the leftovers from other shops)

Adorama: "special order"

Special order means that they don't have stock, but it's available from the distributor. It's not the same as discontinued. Lots of products are special order, including a lot of M lenses.

I don't doubt that the S1R is an older product, as digicams go, and that Panasonic isn't building more. It's due for replacement. However, saying that it's discontinued is just confusing matters because it uses a different definition of the term from what's usual in the industry.

Is a product discontinued on the day that the production line switches to the next product, or is it discontinued the day that a replacement is announced, or is it discontinued on the day that local distributors have clear-out sales? The usual understanding is that it's discontinued on the day that distributors tells stores that the product is no longer orderable. That's not the case here. You can order it from stores, or even directly from Panasonic (if they have a web store in your market).

[frame-it]

22 hours ago, robb said:

So 10 pages in and I see no examples of poor sales..

Robb

 

exactly.

 

maybe the OP and others read these threads and assumed that the SL didn't sell well

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LBJ2]

5 minutes ago, frame-it said:

 

exactly.

 

maybe the OP and others read these threads and assumed that the SL didn't sell well

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It looks like, maybe...now that we know Panasonic is not interested to support APSC as they see their place in this market is MFT and FF, it might make sense that Leica is no longer able to support new development for APSC either given Panasonic is the technology behind Leica mirrorless? Just my personal opinions of course. 

 

[Louis]

I was told that CL was not sold well, and smartphones are taking over the market!!!

I am not convinced about smartphones taking over APSC! MFT is much closer to smartphones and they are still making it. But anyway, APSC system is for those interested in “real” photography; smartphones are not. But Leica believes that all the camera makers would discontinue APSC system sooner or later!

[LocalHero1953]

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35 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

given Panasonic is the technology behind Leica mirrorless

How do you know?

"given that......" - another phrase to be treated with suspicion alongside "It is no secret that......" and "Everyone knows that......."

Edited June 17, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[Martin B]

A recent survey on YouTube posted by M. Osborne added to this. The raised question was "What is your most used type of Leica camera?" After 20 hours, nearly 500 votes came in resulting in the following:

Leica M cameras - 69%
Leica SL cameras -  7%
Leica Q cameras - 12%
Leica CL cameras - 4%
Not interested in Leica, using Lumix or other brands - 8%

This represents well my impression I had for a while. Leica was pushing via advertisements and influencers the SL cameras a lot in the past few years which indicated that the SL series was not selling too well. What is missing is either a Leica Q with exchangeable M-mount or a Leica M with EVF and electronic Q features. The SL is too bulky for M users to adapt to the size and competes for a much higher price tag with Lumix and other full-frame mirrorless cameras on the market. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Martin B

[frame-it]

21 minutes ago, Louis said:

But Leica believes that all the camera makers would discontinue APSC system sooner or later!

and Leica are wrong, since canon/nikon/sony are releasing so many APS-C models now

[LocalHero1953]

10 minutes ago, Martin B said:

A recent survey on YouTube posted by M. Osborne added to this. The raised question was "What is your most used type of Leica camera?" After 20 hours, nearly 500 votes came in resulting in the following:

Leica M cameras - 69%
Leica SL cameras -  7%
Leica Q cameras - 12%
Leica CL cameras - 4%
Not interested in Leica, using Lumix or other brands - 8%

This represents well my impression I had for a while. Leica was pushing via advertisements and influencers the SL cameras a lot in the past few years which indicated that the SL series was not selling too well. What is missing is either a Leica Q with exchangeable M-mount or a Leica M with EVF and electronic Q features. The SL is too bulky for M users to adapt to the size and competes for a much higher price tag with Lumix and other full-frame mirrorless cameras on the market. 

That's impressive market share. Canon, Nikon, Sony & Fuji are nowhere! 😉

[SJH]

2 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

We had exactly the same discussion 6 months ago. It is listed as discontinued pretty much EVERYWHERE.

B&H: "Special order" (which means they are getting the leftovers from other shops)

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1455070-REG/panasonic_dc_s1rbody_lumix_dc_s1r_mirrorless_digital.html

Adorama: "special order" https://www.adorama.com/pcs1r.html 

Wex: not available new, meaning it's not even shown in search results, only used https://www.wexphotovideo.com

And it's been like this since about May 2021. 

What you see still in stock are remaining stock, just like the CL is still available in some camera store.

 

 

Wasn't it actually the S1 that got officially discontinued?

[Stuart Richardson]

It is impossible to say what is going on, because Leica does not publish much information. I also think that market share is a red herring, as Leica has never been about market share. Also keep in mind that the margins are likely a lot higher with Leica. Sigma sells a 35mm f2 for 640 dollars, Leica sells a 35mm f2 for 5200 USD. That is eight times the price. I am not sure if costs Leica eight times more to build it and distribute it.

One thing I would say about the SL system after being a Leica user for a long time. Leica is not behaving like it is not doing well. I have been a Leica S and Leica R shooter, and in those series, the writing was on the wall for a very long time (still is on the S). Leica spent years of doing nothing after the DMR came out before the R was discontinued. One of the last Leica R lenses was the 28-90mm zoom, which came out in 2003. The system was discontinued in 2009. Similarly, the Leica S has not had a new lens since 2014, and other than the S3, which is basically the S007 with a new sensor, nothing has happened in the S world since then. No new accesories (other than the S adapter L, which if anything is an indicator that they are more interested in the L than S), no substantial camera changes (literally the sensor changed...otherwise nothing in 7 years), no new anything. Meanwhile, in the past three years, there has been the SL2, SL2S, the 50mm, 35mm and 28mm APO Summicrons, the 28-70mm zoom, and probably other things I am forgetting. Seems like Leica still has their interests in the SL system...

[LBJ2]

39 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

How do you know?

"given that......" - another phrase to be treated with suspicion alongside "It is no secret that......" and "Everyone knows that......."

Agree. I wrote "my opinions" and probably should not have written "we know" in the same comment. 

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, Louis said:

But Leica believes that all the camera makers would discontinue APSC system sooner or later!

I don't recall that they've said what other brands should do. Market realities are different for each brand. Fuji doesn't offer full-frame, so APS-C + medium format makes sense for them. Canon/Nikon/Sony offer entry-level APS-C kits as entry points into their systems.

[AZN]

7 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

How do you know?

"given that......" - another phrase to be treated with suspicion alongside "It is no secret that......" and "Everyone knows that......."

Completely agree.  I think the "Panasonic Crowd" also tend to forget that the Leica SL Typ601 mirrorless was developed during 2013-14, well before the L-mount alliance and more agressive sharing of parts/ design for the SL2 and SL2s.

[jrp]

The reality is that the frontier has moved to the A1 / R3/5 / Z9.

The SL range's usp is usability, and fantastic lenses, at the expense of weight and AF performance.  Trouble is that I don't think think that they will dare to make a lighter camera becase, perversely, they will fill that they won't be able to charge as much for it.  The AF will get fixed, assuming that they take up the next iteration of Arm chip to drive the camera and have the soft/firmware engineers capable of exploiting it.

I have a broken bone, so have reverted to Sony for the time being to reduce the load I carry.  Their best lenses are pretty good, but having a bit of extra dynamic range (clouds less blown out) and limpet-like AF is pretty sweet.  The availability of a wide range of lens types is also a benefit, although the most popular lenses seem as unavailable as Leica lenses for a lot of the time.

[Martin B]

8 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

That's impressive market share. Canon, Nikon, Sony & Fuji are nowhere! 😉

Did you read the survey question? It is focused on Leica cameras and also Leica users. Therefore the last poll option remained low with 8%.

[MakinMemories]

1 hour ago, Martin B said:

Did you read the survey question? It is focused on Leica cameras and also Leica users. Therefore the last poll option remained low with 8%.

Pretty sure his post was sarcastic humor...

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[LocalHero1953]

6 hours ago, Martin B said:

Did you read the survey question? It is focused on Leica cameras and also Leica users. Therefore the last poll option remained low with 8%.

Yes, my post was intended to be humorous - hence the emoji.

[BernardC]

14 hours ago, jrp said:

The reality is that the frontier has moved to the A1 / R3/5 / Z9.

The SL range's usp is usability, and fantastic lenses, at the expense of weight and AF performance.

Is there really a "frontier?" YouTubers always review the latest cameras, and switch systems every week, but that's their business model.

Let's have a look at each system's USP.

Nikon is easy. They are a dying system with nothing but former glories. It's sad to watch.

Sony's USP used to be that they let you use EOS lenses on a mirrorless camera. They also had a USP of a high-megapixel sensor, but landscape users have moved-on. Then their USP became "speed," but they aren't any faster than Canon and (probably) Nikon these days. Their "negative USP" is that you need to spend $6500 to get their full-featured camera. Anything else in their lineup is throttled. Also, they only have a few class-competitive lenses.

Canon is the "worry-free" choice. They are have something to offer in every category, and they are ahead in professional-support and super-telephoto.

L Mount's USP is video (the S1H and fp are loved by professionals), image quality, and lenses. While Canon rules over 400mm, L Mount has it all in the more common range: from cost-no-object Leica lenses, to high-quality competitively-priced Panasonic and Sigma, and even high-quality kit lenses.

Their other USP is choice. With Sony, your buying decision is "what features am I willing to give-up if I can't afford the a1?" With Canon you get a choice of R3 (high speed, low megapixel) or R5 (less speed, more pixels). Compare that to the variety in L-mount: two flavours of SLs for exquisite interface and usability, your choice of full-featured "heavy metal" or entry-level/light from Panasonic, and four different video-centric cameras from Sigma and Panasonic. Some will argue that L-Mount provides too much variety, but it's a USP because no other system has this. They also don't have any stripped-out "cameras of shame." The S5 at the low-end has better video features than almost any hybrid at any price.

 

As we all know, the main weak point for L Mount is AF speed. They are good but not great, especially for sports. No system is perfect, and we all know that anyone who specializes in sports uses Canon (unless their press syndicate signed a exclusive contract with Sony!).