L-system - Why poor sales?

[BernardC]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

5 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

You can also get the Sony/Zeiss 55 1.8, which is only 281g (and the only lens I truly miss from my Sony days)

The Nikon 50mm 1.8 is 415g and it's an excellent lens. Or you can get the heavier 1.2 version.

Canon has a 1.2 at 950g and the cheaply made, mediocre 1.8 version. I guess we have to wait for something inbetween to judge.

I'll add one to the list: Panasonic's 50/1.8 weighs 300g. Surely it's an option for anyone who wants a cheap/light 50mm to round-out their kit?

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[John Smith]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

Except you can do this with all other mirrorless. Voigtlander and other brands even have native Sony mount lenses. You don't even need the L-M adapter.

I really don't know why a guy who wants to stick Voigtlanders on his Sonys is hanging out in a Leica forum. But maybe your right, and Kaufmann and company should call it quits because they just can't figure out how to shave a few grams off their mirrorless cameras and lenses. 

[Simone_DF]

18 minutes ago, BernardC said:

Except for the fact that many M lenses barely work on other systems, or even on Sigma and Panasonic cameras.

True, but as stated above, Voigtlander and other brands also make the same lenses in other mounts and optimized for a specific system, for example you can buy the terrific Voigtlander 50mm APO in both M and E mount. This means you don't even need to add an adapter inbetween.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Simone_DF]

6 minutes ago, John Smith said:

I really don't know why a guy who wants to stick Voigtlanders on his Sonys is hanging out in a Leica forum. But maybe your right, and Kaufmann and company should call it quits because they just can't figure out how to shave a few grams off their mirrorless cameras and lenses. 

Touched a nerve? I don't even have a Sony.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Simone_DF

[Simone_DF]

20 minutes ago, BernardC said:

I'll add one to the list: Panasonic's 50/1.8 weighs 300g. Surely it's an option for anyone who wants a cheap/light 50mm to round-out their kit?

Are Panasonic lenses to be considered "first party" though? Genuine question, since for many people only Leica lenses are "real" lenses.

[Stuart Richardson]

39 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Are Panasonic lenses to be considered "first party" though? Genuine question, since for many people only Leica lenses are "real" lenses.

It is a native L mount lens. So yes. It is interesting to me that people do not seem to get this. Leica entered into the alliance with Sigma and Panasonic specifically so they did not have to make cheaper or entry level alternatives. There are lenses and bodies at lower price points and in lighter/smaller sizes for people who want those. So for people who want Leica handling but don't want to pay for the optical quality/size of the Leica lenses, they can get Sigma or Panasonic lenses (or even the Voigtlander M lenses etc), and for people who want the Leica optics but not the bodies, they can buy an S1 or S1R with a Leica lens etc. That is initially what I did...I wanted to use my S lenses with a better video system, so I bought the S1. Then I wanted a native lens, I got the 50mm APO. Eventually, I bought a used SL2 and sold the S bodies, as the flexibility of the SL system was better for me. I still use the Sigma 24mm as a wide angle. It is a great lens... If anything, it surprises me that people would want Leica to change one of the things they do best (making optically superb lenses) in order to be more like their competitors, whose lenses are readily available anyway...

[BernardC]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

43 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Are Panasonic lenses to be considered "first party" though? Genuine question, since for many people only Leica lenses are "real" lenses.

Panasonic 1.8 lenses certainly compare favourably with Canon/Nikon/Sony. They are fully-compatible on the electronic side (which isn't the case with third-party lenses), and the build quality is excellent for the $300 price.

[Simone_DF]

1 minute ago, BernardC said:

Panasonic 1.8 lenses certainly compare favourably with Canon/Nikon/Sony. They are fully-compatible on the electronic side (which isn't the case with third-party lenses), and the build quality is excellent for the $300 price.

Yes they do seem a good option. I have only the Panasonic 70-200 F4 and I'm happy with it. Very reasonable size/price/quality ratio. But for primes I prefer the haptics of the Sigmas and their aperture rings. 

[LBJ2]

2 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

This is somewhat true, but the difference with other brands is that they also offer lighter first party option at the same time.

The Sony 1.2 GM is 778g, but it's a f1.2 lens, not f2. You can also get the Sony/Zeiss 55 1.8, which is only 281g (and the only lens I truly miss from my Sony days)

The Nikon 50mm 1.8 is 415g and it's an excellent lens. Or you can get the heavier 1.2 version.

Canon has a 1.2 at 950g and the cheaply made, mediocre 1.8 version. I guess we have to wait for something inbetween to judge.

 

But also the weight of the SL2 is way above the rest. 930g vs the Canon R5 (738g), the Nikon Z7II (615g) or the Sony A1 (737g)

It's the combo that is deadly.

I shoot Sony and Sony GM lenses side by side with my SL2 and M11 kit regularly. I am very hands-on aware of the differences many write about on the forums. Sony is indeed kicking @$$  optically too compared to where they started. Sony = one constant stream of improvements one after the other, some speed bumps along the way too. to be fair. 

I also realize there are many who prefer the heavier the better and that's not a minority opinion across multiple forums. The Nikon Z9 comment I wrote above is just one of many examples of those, even the eldest among us who prefer bigger and heavier cameras and are happy to list the reasons why. Always a terrible debate particularly if you shoot Sony. People on the forums seem to go out of their way repeatedly to dress down "small Sony cameras" Another behavior I'll never understand. 

At first use I found the SL2 felt heavy to me compared to Sony mirrorless and Leica M. But as I wrote, got over that quickly and now feel very comfortable with the SL2 + APO kit as needed. In fact, I bought the SL2 so I could use the 35/2 APO and ended up really enjoying the SL2--much more than anticipated. 

To me the size and weight of the SL2 is more than worth it for access to the extraordinary SL APO primes as well as use all my M lenses on the second best camera system for M lenses ever made. Win Win for me. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by LBJ2

[nicci78]

https://www.dpreview.com/news/0018955374/dji-joined-l-mount-alliance-adds-prores-4444-xq-video-capture-to-ronin-4d

 

DJI just joined L-mount for its drone. 

[frame-it]

Just now, nicci78 said:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/0018955374/dji-joined-l-mount-alliance-adds-prores-4444-xq-video-capture-to-ronin-4d

 

DJI just joined L-mount for its drone. 

nice so hasselblad is kind of part of the Leica Ecosystem..haha kidding 😇

[nicci78]

Hasselblad is kinda dead since DJI bought it... only stick the swedish brand on drones lenses

[beewee]

.

Edited June 15, 2022 by beewee
Double post

[beewee]

 

21 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

DJI just joined L-mount for its drone. 

I’m sure when Leica stops making APO SL primes, our lenses will suddenly turn from overpriced pariahs to mythical legends that cinematographers will want to use on their gimbals.

Edited June 15, 2022 by beewee

[LBJ2]

36 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/0018955374/dji-joined-l-mount-alliance-adds-prores-4444-xq-video-capture-to-ronin-4d

 

DJI just joined L-mount for its drone. 

Good news for L-Mount! Unexpected too. Literally, the more the merrier for those of us that have bought into L-Mount. I wonder which drone model will be able to carry the SL 50 F1.4?  😎

[BernardC]

21 minutes ago, beewee said:

I’m sure when Leica stops making APO SL primes, our lenses will suddenly turn from overpriced pariahs to mythical legends that cinematographers will want to use on their gimbals.

Give it time! Remember how for decades people would confidently tell you that [their favourite brand's lenses] were just as good as Leica's. Then people bought R and M adapters and the narrative changed to "OMG, these are so good!"

[Stuart Richardson]

I have also been on forums for about 20 years now, and every time Leica comes out with a new lens, it is usually derided as being "too clinical", not having character etc. Fast forward ten years (sometimes even 5), and all of a sudden it is full of character and the new lenses that are soulless. It is a well worn pattern. A certain group of people don't like change and improvement, but after a few years they get used to it again they like it. It does not always happen this way, of course, but it does happen a lot. The 50mm Summilux ASPH was heavily criticized for this. In my own testing I could not really tell it apart from my 50mm Summicron which everyone loved...it was just a stop faster. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[frame-it]

6 hours ago, beewee said:

 

I’m sure when Leica stops making APO SL primes, our lenses will suddenly turn from overpriced pariahs to mythical legends that cinematographers will want to use on their gimbals.

really? with fly by wire manual focus?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Archiver]

12 hours ago, BernardC said:

Except for the fact that many M lenses barely work on other systems, or even on Sigma and Panasonic cameras. Granted, there are a few that don't have soft corners or weird colours on other mirrorless cameras, mostly recent ASPH lenses. If that's all you have, then those other camera systems are an option.

I'm not sure why M-mount compatibility always comes-up in these threads. The M lenses that are retrofocus (and thus compatible with other systems) tend to be newer and more expensive. Is there really a large number of photographers who have several Asph M lenses but don't own a Leica to go with them? I know it was a trend back in the day, with every blogger trying-out M lenses on the A7r, but that was because Sony's lenses weren't very good. These days you can get an SL2-S for roughly the same price as a competing high-end camera body, and you can get a used SL much cheaper than that. The market for people who spend a small fortune on M lenses but can't be bothered to buy a compatible camera must be trivial.

I'm part of the sub-subniche in this instance. Many of my M lenses are wide angle older designs like the Voigtlander 12mm v2, 15mm v1, 35mm f1.2 v1, Biogon 21/2.8, Biogon 25/2.8 etc.

Even the Panasonic S5 isn't the best with M mount lenses, although it's better with focal lengths longer than 35mm. The Voigtlander Nokton 35mm f1.4 v1 on the S5 is nothing like on the M9, especially on the outer third of the image. Distant light sources like street lights render with a very unpleasant double image, and the image is overall even more soft and glowy wide open than on the M9. The Elmarit 28 Asph isn't particularly good on the S5, either, making it a centre-of-lens-only situation.

As much as I love my M9, there are limitations to the sensor that aren't present in current sensors. But buying a current Leica body is a very expensive exercise, M or SL.A secondhand SL is the least expensive option, but that brings the size, weight and expensive battery situation.

[Archiver]

12 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

True, but as stated above, Voigtlander and other brands also make the same lenses in other mounts and optimized for a specific system, for example you can buy the terrific Voigtlander 50mm APO in both M and E mount. This means you don't even need to add an adapter inbetween.

As an aside, I would love for Voigtlander to join the L mount alliance and make manual focus primes specifically optimized for L mount.