New Firmware 1.3.0 for Leica M11 (and Fotos app updated to 3.1.0)

[anickpick]

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vor 12 Minuten schrieb Overgaard:

The missing shots with Single is still there, I thik we agree on that: And I think I will conclude by now that it will never be fixed.

No.

I can fire as fast as I can, 10 single exposures in a row, no missing shots, when set auto review to shutter button.

Try it. Thank me later.

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[Photoworks]

18 minutes ago, Overgaard said:

The glitch of slow Low continuous speed has been fixed, I meant. Do you agree on that?

The missing shots with Single is still there, I thik we agree on that: And I think I will conclude by now that it will never be fixed. Because of all the shutter movements to take a single photo, there is a limit for how fast you dan do the next single. And as the shutter movement is not predictable (sometimes it stays open, sometimes it closes after a single shot), it's just a bad idea to use the Leica M11 in single shooting mode (when you need to fire more fast because something is happening). 
Not that I like it, but I think that is it. That's how it works, and the way to not have to worry about it is to set the Leica M11 to Low continuous. 

or you can have auto preview on on press and it shoots singles just fine..

I think they didn't address all the bugs that have been found.

[Tailwagger]

Again, only a minute or two of fooling around, but my impression is that the AWB issues have been addressed as well. Just took a test shot in my living room and the color accuracy was uncanny.  A tick strong in the orange/red, but blue/yellow/green seems really good.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Tailwagger

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Overgaard said:

It seem to expose the entire scene based on highlights; to keep the highlights as bright as possible without blowing them.

Did an outdoor test with sunshine hitting the wall between the palm trees: In that case it underexpose so the wall is not blow out, but the entire photos is underexposed. Very similar to the example in their PDF. 
But then I did an indoor, and where the classic Center-weighted metering does 1/320, the Matrix-metering does 1/270 and Highlight-weighted does 1/180 (increase exposure without blowing highlights). Interesting feature as it doesn't just underexpose to avoid blown highlights, but also lifts exposure when it can. 

The PDF does say that the exposure of the entire photo will be adjusted to the brightest elements. So that goes for both very bright scenes, but also a dark room with no really blown highlights. 

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Very helpful, thank you. Could you please also test with e.g. a bright red object to test if the definition of highlight includes single-channel saturation, or if is based on the combined luminance value? I suspect it is the latter, but of course the former would be really useful to have as well (or even more useful).

[Overgaard]

1 hour ago, Tailwagger said:

On the plus side, I just did a quick torture test with the 28mm 'lux and I'm pleased to report that is would appear as though the severe fringing problems have been addressed.

Indeed good news. I just checked outside and I think you are right that the purple fringing of the 28/1.4 has been improved and fixed. 

Will wait a few hours for the sun to be in position to do a comparison photo of one I did the other day 🙂

[Overgaard]

25 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Again, only a minute or two of fooling around, but my impression is that the AWB issues have been addressed as well. Just took a test shot in my living room and the color accuracy was uncanny.  A tick strong in the orange/red, but blue/yellow/green seems really good.

Never relied on AWB, but sounds great if it has improved as many use Auto White Balance. 

Tell more about before/after if you can.

 

[SrMi]

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44 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Do you happen to know if the previous methodology was retained? ie. On the 10-R you do not have to enable PC to use it in LR as the numbers were embedded in the DNG regardless. All PC did was enable the framing lines, which I hated to watch bounce around, so I just guestimated whenever I was using it. 

The behavior seems to be the same as on M10-R, except that LrC does not yet support it (M11 is not officially supported yet).

The PitchAngle and RollAngle are set regardless whether PC is on or off. With PC on, CorrectionAlreadyApplied and ApplyAutomatically is set to true so that LrC can apply it automatically at import.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Overgaard said:

You don't have to do that anymore. That glitch seem to have been fixed.

What is left is that (because of all the shutter movements between single shots), there is a limit for how fast you can fire single shots. If you do it too fast, it'l skip the ones where the shutter is not ready yet. 

It is still there on my M11 (LV off). I have to set Auto Review to shutter button, otherwise the camera stays locked after a shot longer than usual.

[SrMi]

The highlight-weighted metering seems more usable than with non-Leica cameras (e.g., Nikon). It looks like it simulates ETTR, as it always protects the highlights but increases exposure in low contrast scenes.
I will try to use it as default metering. However, it may be less useful for JPG shooters.

[Overgaard]

36 minutes ago, mzbe said:

Very helpful, thank you. Could you please also test with e.g. a bright red object to test if the definition of highlight includes single-channel saturation, or if is based on the combined luminance value? I suspect it is the latter, but of course the former would be really useful to have as well (or even more useful).

That's where it would be great to have Jesko from Leica talk about what they did, and how things work. Also the AWB issue. 

Did this, and I feel I have an idea how it works. It make sure that no highlight is blown, no matter the color, and the tonal values of red and other colors remain. Don't know to to do a test that explains exactly how it works on color channels, but this gives and idea of the overall "thinking" it operates on. More like a normal meter that tries to make the overall image midt tone, this one spots the brightest spot and keeps it from being blown out.

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[Franka373]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

during the update process it will ask to save setting to SD card.

there is no shutter count reset as it does not actually tell you a shutter count. you probably talking about the image number, that does not change, but it has not connection with the shutter count. When you turn on the camera the shutter opens, that counts as a shutter count, but your photo has not been take.

Yes I mean image numbering.   Thanks for clarifying.  My experience with Leica when I do a firmware update it resets the image numbering with a new prefix like 101 and the image number back to one.  It’s very frustrating.  My current image number is 1000215.  When I do the upgrade I don’t want it to be 1010001 or something else. Does this make sense? It happens every time. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Franka373

[Overgaard]

1 minute ago, Franka373 said:

Yes I mean image numbering.   Thanks for clarifying.  My experience with Leica when I do a firmware update it resets the image numbering with a new prefix like 101 and the image number back to one.  It’s very frustrating.  My current image number is 1000215.  When I do the upgrade I don’t want to to be 1010001 or something else. Does this make sense? It happens every time. 

Some updates on other models, the entire settings was reset. In recent times, settings remained untouched after updates. 

In worst case, go to Screen 4 > Camera Settings > Edit file name and you can change it to me M******* or other (I do that on every camera so I can tell from the file name which camera was used). This would be a way to avoid overlapping names.  

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37 minutes ago, Overgaard said:

That's where it would be great to have Jesko from Leica talk about what they did, and how things work. Also the AWB issue. 

Did this, and I feel I have an idea how it works. It make sure that no highlight is blown, no matter the color, and the tonal values of red and other colors remain. Don't know to to do a test that explains exactly how it works on color channels, but this gives and idea of the overall "thinking" it operates on. More like a normal meter that tries to make the overall image midt tone, this one spots the brightest spot and keeps it from being blown out.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Thank you - this is great news, would mean that I don't have to use UniWB to keep automatic exposure below blowing out individual channels. If it works reliably then my workflow would change to highlight-weighted exposure (knowing that it represents safe ETTR) and +- exposure compensation relative to that baseline (to deliberately discard information by choice, not by mistake)

[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, Overgaard said:

Never relied on AWB, but sounds great if it has improved as many use Auto White Balance. 

Tell more about before/after if you can.

Yeah... I'm lazy, largely because I've always been able to tweak things after the fact.  For more serious stuff, I just shoot a gray card.  Anyway, I and others noted somewhat of a magenta cast (I had wondered if some of that related to the excess levels of purple fringing) which I'm no longer seeing (or at least less of).   I just did a quick back lit test shot or two from my seat in my living room, loaded in the files into LR, pressed auto (resetting saturation and vibrance to 0) and then looked at the results on screen and compared them to what I was seeing live in front of me.  Didnt even have to get out of my chair... like I said... lazy. 

The color of the furniture and guitar seemed dead on, the red of the guitar pick, rug and the orange poster you can see in the upper left of the inset seem a tick oversaturated rom reality, but I'm sure M9 lovers will enjoy that.  The matte on the photo at the top, where there's not red or blue reflecting off the rug/guitar looked pretty good, hence my comment. You can still see some evidence of fringe on the printer and tripod (this was shot wide open to check for that as well) but again far less than I was seeing previously.  

In thinking about doing something slightly more scientific what would be interesting to do is to re-profile the camera and a lens or two and compare the settings generated with the ones I did a couple of days ago prior to the firmware update to see how they've changed. 

 

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Edited March 29, 2022 by Tailwagger

[scott kirkpatrick]

Reading the (very short) explanation of highlight weighted metering, my sense is that the use case Leica has in mind is white bridal dresses next to grooms in dark tuxedos.  And when they are aware of that they will ETTR, counting  on the higher DR of the latest sensors to provide shadows from which detail can still be extracted.  I played around with this a bit and could observe a stop or so of ETTR when a bright white area was in the center of the image, but less shift when the (not too large) white object was off center.  This means that it may take a lot of sky to bring in full ETTR.  Interestingly, in a flat indoor scene, the Highlight exposure, the matrix exposure and the center weighted exposure were all the same, so it wasn't doing ETTR if there seemed to be no need.  

What are other people seeing?   I have not used Highlight weighted metering in my SL2, which also offers it, but might compare.

[anickpick]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb scott kirkpatrick:

Reading the (very short) explanation of highlight weighted metering, my sense is that the use case Leica has in mind is white bridal dresses next to grooms in dark tuxedos.  And when they are aware of that they will ETTR, counting  on the higher DR of the latest sensors to provide shadows from which detail can still be extracted.  I played around with this a bit and could observe a stop or so of ETTR when a bright white area was in the center of the image, but less shift when the (not too large) white object was off center.  This means that it may take a lot of sky to bring in full ETTR.  Interestingly, in a flat indoor scene, the Highlight exposure, the matrix exposure and the center weighted exposure were all the same, so it wasn't doing ETTR if there seemed to be no need.  

What are other people seeing?   I have not used Highlight weighted metering in my SL2, which also offers it, but might compare.

I just made some selfies - in front of a mirror, spot lights from above.

I tried center-weighted, multi-field, and highlight-weighed metering.

Few observations:

- the different exposure metering methods led to similar results. 

- without exposure compensation, every single metering method led to blown out highlights in my grey hair.

[Photoworks]

7 minutes ago, anickpick said:

every single metering method led to blown out highlights in my grey hair.

can you more specific?

JPG or in raw edited?

[SrMi]

13 minutes ago, anickpick said:

I just made some selfies - in front of a mirror, spot lights from above.

I tried center-weighted, multi-field, and highlight-weighed metering.

Few observations:

- the different exposure metering methods led to similar results. 

- without exposure compensation, every single metering method led to blown out highlights in my grey hair.

How do you determine that you have blown-out highlights?

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[SrMi]

24 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Reading the (very short) explanation of highlight weighted metering, my sense is that the use case Leica has in mind is white bridal dresses next to grooms in dark tuxedos.  And when they are aware of that they will ETTR, counting  on the higher DR of the latest sensors to provide shadows from which detail can still be extracted.  I played around with this a bit and could observe a stop or so of ETTR when a bright white area was in the center of the image, but less shift when the (not too large) white object was off center.  This means that it may take a lot of sky to bring in full ETTR.  Interestingly, in a flat indoor scene, the Highlight exposure, the matrix exposure and the center weighted exposure were all the same, so it wasn't doing ETTR if there seemed to be no need.  

What are other people seeing?   I have not used Highlight weighted metering in my SL2, which also offers it, but might compare.

In every test I did in low contrast scene, highlight weighted metering exposed more (e.g., lower shutter speed, same ISO).

[anickpick]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Photoworks:

can you more specific?

JPG or in raw edited?

raw - lightroom classic, hightlights -100

In other tests, center-weighted and multi-field metering led to darker exposures than highlight-weighted metering - however, this test seems to show that highlight-weighted metering might not work (in all situations for dummies like me)...